Small amp big sound

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:49 pm

I have heard again and again that you can get a big sound out of a small amp. I don't really understand how this is possible, and was wondering if someone could expain this phenomenon.
I am after a Guns&Roses (Appetite for destruction) kind of sound. Or a Lynyrd Skynyrd (That Smell) sound. Can I get this with a fender champ or little danelectr?

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:20 pm

I hear the champ is great through another speaker cabinet.
I love my li'l Gibson Goldtone, 6 or 15 watts switchable, Class A. Crank it up with a Les Paul and it sounds huge, but is only too loud, not way way too loud.
I've made it sound like two or three of Jimi Hendrix's souped-up Marshall stacks, with an inspired player and a couple distance mics and a close mic in a live room with a high ceiling. Actually that last one required a preamp before the Goldtone to get the requisite gain from the Strat. Not necessary with the Les Paul.
So yes it's possible, and a big room helps a lot to get a big sound, but not a requirement.
If you want the sound of a close-backed cabinet like a Marshall, some proximity effect from a cardioid close mic can help, and of course closing the back of the cabinet works too.
Ted

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:28 pm

Oh, and a brief explanation of the phenomenon:
Big amps cranked flat out get power amp distortion and often speaker distortion. A small amp cranked flat out also gets power amp distortion and if a suitably rated celestion is used, some speaker distortion too.
A big amp won't get the power amp and speaker distortion unless it's cranked.
So, at a bearable volume, a little amp can sound bigger than a big amp.
Ted

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2002 6:16 am

So you say a big room is helpful, but not neccessary, What about mics?
Can I achieve that big sound with one sm57, or will I need to add another mic backed off somewhere. Would a third and fourth mike add to the big effect?
On the champ, isn't that solid state? would I need to get a tube mic pre? Or would a nice plug in be appropriate?

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2002 6:34 am

The '57 is okay. M-88 or MD-421 are better for this use if you have one. Small-room sounds are sometimes useful on guitars, like fuzzed out dream pop stuff, say, but you want the small amp to ring out as big as possible, so go with the small amp. I wouldn't mess with more than one extra mic unless I was in a mood to hunt down whatever combfiltering gremlins they introduce.

When people talk about a Fender Champ, they mean the tube models with a single 6V6 output tube. The whole Layla album was nothing but Champ, so that should give you an idea that they don't suck. The stock 8" speaker would be the limiting factor for you. I find it's fine for getting a sound that cuts in a mix, but you would probably be better using it through a 412 cab. If you don't have a tube mic preamp, don't buy the cheap ones with one starved-plate tube which is only cosmetic because of some perceived failure in not having a tube preamp, since these things suck.

Bear

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2002 8:55 am

I use a Marshall 4001, aka "Studio 15". It's a 18 watt 1x12 combo, 2 6V6's, (the only Marshall to ever use these tubes) built in attenuator, 12" Celestion Vintage 30 speaker, master volume...It's very cool!

Here is some dudes Studio 15 page you can check out: http://cobalt.amlitho.com/marshall/

:tu:

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:49 pm

Check out Emery Sound amps. emerysound.com Totally hand built little beauties. Nothing but Volume and Tone knobs, and switchable tubes, a very minimalist approach.

I just got my hands on a Superbaby which is 8 watts, switchable down to four, and has Preamp, Rectifier and Output tubes. There's even a kit full of various tubes to interchange for all three locations. The tone was very full, and the growl produced at higher volume settings was pretty badass. I've only been playing with it for a day or so, so I'm still in the honeymoon phase, but my guitar sounds definately improved instantly.

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2002 5:21 pm

i own a 50 yr old all-valve airline amp, that gives me the sweetest tone with my old maton electric (at a bearable volume)

think of it that way, the microphone is right against the grill, as far as it's concerned the little amp is the size of a building

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2002 6:08 pm

Has anyone tried the Electar Tube 10? I've heard a few people speak well of it as a "cheap dirty amp".

I have a mid '70s Champ. I'd rather have a VibraChamp but this is nice for clean sounds. Some Telecaster players have commented that its "fucking bright" and I concur.

The Pignose can make good dirty sounds. Its also small enough to swing from a rope for excellent "Doppler effects".

The Smokey can be fun too. Same pendulum qualities as the Pignose plus, you can use it as a kind of "Rube Goldberg Talkbox". Always worth trying through a cabinet.

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2002 10:39 pm

Champs + external speakers and ribbon mics = pretty large sound!!! :tu:

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2002 8:53 am

Gee, that Emery thing sounds cool. 8 watts! Yes! But after 6 watts it might be a little much! :p
The shortcoming of the Goldtone is that the spring reverb is driven by solid state circuitry, so it doesn't get the "classic" reverb tone. It's more lush and less twangy. I have a nice biggish live room, so mixed with the room reverb it sounds good. I always give the amp some room to breathe.
Does that Emery have a reverb? What's it like?
I like that the Goldtone is capable (with a Les Paul) of a huge amount of gain, which sounds hendrixier and hendrixier rather than ever really saturating into something blander.
I gotta get an old Champ while they're still affordable. Groovy how one tube does it all, rather than the push pull thing (which is, however, how all the big amps do it).
Ted

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2002 4:42 pm

I have prefered using a 'Danelectro Nifty Fifty' over larger/loud amps for the past two years. With a Royer ribbon mic up against the grill you can achieve a very large, in your face sound. If you want the 80's, so to speak, sound with more room...this is what we always did (Steve Lukather, for example). Assuming the little amp is on a chair: place a large diaphragm condenser mic about four or five feet in front of the cabinet, waist high, in OMNI. Have the Royer or 57 shoved into the grill cloth. Now, bring up the omni mic ONLY. Let yourself acclimate to the sound for a moment. Then bring up the close mic to taste. Badda-bing.
Benjy

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2002 1:29 am

Well the other day I was experimenting, and I decided to close mic a little mini-twin (2watt?) amp (the ones that look like a toy, solid state). I put a condensor right in front of the little speaker, and to my surprise, it sounded huge and fuzzy. It's one of the most interesting sounds I've ever gotten. But it only works if you are going for a classic tube breaking sound. It's funny to see peoples reactions when I tell them how I got that sound.
happy miking
Joz

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2002 7:30 pm

Quote:

posted March 03, 2002 08:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gee, that Emery thing sounds cool. 8 watts! Yes! But after 6 watts it might be a little much!
The shortcoming of the Goldtone is that the spring reverb is driven by solid state circuitry, so it doesn't get the "classic" reverb tone. It's more lush and less twangy. I have a nice biggish live room, so mixed with the room reverb it sounds good. I always give the amp some room to breathe.
Does that Emery have a reverb? What's it like?

The Emery Amp, known as the "Superbaby" has no reverb. All it's got for controls is Volume and a roll off dila for either bass or treble rolloff, and that dial is switchable, so as to be removed from the signal path. So far, I haven't felt the need for any more tonal sculpting than the rolloff provides, as it seems to just "get it right".

The meat of the tone comes from the three tubes. I haven't swapped any of mine around yet, as I'm still diggin the one that came with it.

It's definately a minimalist approach, but I have never heard any of my guitars sound so solid and full.

I bet that Demeter spring verb tank used on a Superbaby track would be superbad. Anyone heard that thing?

Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 7:27 am

Did a tracking session last weekend and we got a great 70's tone off a small amp. It was a fender (american) strat into a fender Blues Jr. He also had a boss overdrive pedal for some extra edge when needed. We put an M-88 on it turned it up and let it go. The room was a large (old chapel) practice space for the Music Department. A great live room overall. We tracked drums, bass, and two guitars at the same time. I think that the bleed and the room helped with the overall sound. He had great tone on a couple different tracks!

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