Hard L-R Panning guitars = Mono ?

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:33 am

hello-

I need to know about this hard-panning of doubled guitars. (that is computer copy-doubled)

When I hard pan 100% Left and Right, it sounds like its back to Mono ! Am I crazy.?

But, when I pan 70% L/R it really gives me the wide sound that the 100% panning is supposed to give. I'm really not asking whether its legit to do 70%, but I'm curious if there's a tech explanation why I'm hearing the 100% L/R thing as Mono.

The Human doubling I've done has a bit better effect with the 100% L/R, but the sound is sorta hazy and far away.

thanks

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 1:16 am

I've personally experemented with panning quite a bit in my years of recording.
I have encountered this problem before.
I think it's beacuse you have so much of the same thing on L & R, but nothing in the center.
Try this as a solution.
Take track 1, and pan it 100% Left.
Take track 2, and pan it 100% Right.
Then duplicate the track once more,
as track 3.
Leave track 3 in the center, and
ajust the level to about -1.5dB or -2.0dB
lower than the other 2 tracks.
Then move the track to be very very slightly
later than the two L & R tracks.
Always remember... if you duplicate tracks on your
computer, make sure you always set one a few milliseconds later than the other.
If you dont, then you're just hearing the same exact thing on L & R. Which is the same thing as Mono. Setting one guitar track later than another, gives the effect of 2 different guitarists. I personally like to double-up by
just recording it multiple times.
Also experiment with mic placement.
Try using four mics on a guitar amp and recording
them all at the same time.
Try to capture every sound you can out of what you have...then take what you like, and add it to the mix. Later on, this might help your guitar and the song have more body than before.
Anyway, I hope this helps solve your problem.

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:16 am

Hi

Of corse you perceive that effect as mono: you're just doubling the same exact sample, so it only adds to the volume (if it's correctly phase aligned), resulting in a dual mono sound, not a fake stereo, as the source is eaxctly the same for each channel; the effect you hear when you pan the tracks 70% apart is probably due to some phase interaction with the rest of the tracks. The only way to have a real doubling is to doubletrack as tightly as possible and then spread apart. If you want you can try to add a little modulation on one of your copy-generated tracks, so as to give it a little movement and difference from its original source, but even this is a compromise (IMO).

Hope this helps

L.G.

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 4:27 am

Think about a normal, mono, center-panned track for a minute. What happens when you play it and your system is stereo?

That mono signal is duplicated and sent to each speaker.

Now think about what happens when you duplicate a track and pan one hard left (gets sent to left channel only) and pan one hard right. (gets sent to right channel only).

Sounds similiar, don't it? Wink

Best option would be to record twice. Delaying by a couple of miliseconds between channels for the same track can introduce some really weird-sounding stuff like comb filtering.

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

Quote:

Originally posted by Alanfc:
hello-

I need to know about this hard-panning of doubled guitars. (that is computer copy-doubled)

This is NOT what is known as "DOUBLING".

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:21 am

Moving one track also causes bad phase problems if anyone ever listens to it on a mono system. Real double tracks are essential for this sound, but if you just can't get them tight enough, try putting a "MONO" chorus FX on only "ONE" of the duplicated tracks. This will give the elusion of movement between the speakers therefore widening the stereo field. You can also double the amount of mics you are using and separate them left and right in the mix. Put them on different speakers if possible. Each mic and speaker will have slightly different characteristics giving each side of the mix a slightly different sound. Or go farther and use two different amps while tracking.

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:28 pm

Someone told me a long time ago "its only stereo when L and R are different"
Something about the simplicity of the statement made it click for me.

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:20 pm

shazam this is great info
thanks alot guys

Quote:

Originally posted by RecorderMan:

Quote:

Originally posted by Alanfc:
[b] hello-

I need to know about this hard-panning of doubled guitars. (that is computer copy-doubled)

This is NOT what is known as "DOUBLING". [/b]

Mr. RecorderMan, indeed I understand this is just copying/cloning. I have been working at real true human doubling for some time and its a great challenge but also a great sound. Totally worth the labor. I think the copying/cloning thing was cool when I first got the PC multitracking software, but now that I'm so incredibly experienced in this (?? !!), that human doubling is the best way for my music.

thanks

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:26 am

Just a thought...

In a case where U have no other option BUT 2 copy, (I sometimes get pre recorded tracks for mixing) U can use the same track twice but cut similar lines from earlier or later time.

For example, if the gtr part in the first verse & chorus (A1&B1) is similar to the gtr part in the second verse & chorus (A2&B2) than:

Original (panned left): A1 > B1 > A2 > B2
Copy (panned right): A2 > B2 > A1 > B1

Assuming of course that the guitarist played the whole song through...

U may discover @ times that the same verse and chorus were pasted all over the song, and U have been doing all the cutting just 2 encounter 2 identical tracks, cheerfully humming a mono tune, sample accurate Smile

Peace,

Zooot

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