Tips for recording Accordion and viola .

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:13 pm

Hello all !

I have a new project to record. It's a folk band (condinental european folk music). The band has many instruments. There are two instruments that i don't have any previous recording experience. The viola and the accordion. For the viola the player is using a pickup (fishman V-100). To be honest i didn't even know the existence of these devices... since i've never used this kind of equipment i want to experiment with it and learn some useful tips about it.

I am also thinking to mic up the viola and decide afterwards which one of the two tracks is the one i prefer. I've seen someone micing up a viola (in a gig) with an AKG SE300E. The result was good and this microphone is available to me for this session but any suggestions on microphones and mic placements would be more than welcome..

For the accordion i am still waiting for the musician to give me some information about the equipment he uses so i can have an idea about his approach. Some extra opinions though, are always beneficial...

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:28 am

I work with a lot of polka bands, and ussually I wil stero mic the accordian with a pair of AKG C1000, (not the best mic) but that technique works well. On occasion, I use a AKG C12 (the tube) just about 6 inches from the right side of the accordian (near the finger board) the only issue is if it is a noisy accordian you will get some clicking, generally that happens unless it is amazing accordian.

The other thing you have to watch out for, it is more of a producer perspective, but on the bass side , if the accordian player isn't amazing, there bass runs can be a bit sloppy, which wreaks havoc, with a bassplayers playing. I generaly will ask the accordian player, to not play the bass end, as it ussually muddys up everything. Of course that is your choice.

-gil

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:10 am

gilligan204 wrote:

I work with a lot of polka bands, and ussually I wil stero mic the accordian with a pair of AKG C1000, (not the best mic) but that technique works well. On occasion, I use a AKG C12 (the tube) just about 6 inches from the right side of the accordian (near the finger board) the only issue is if it is a noisy accordian you will get some clicking, generally that happens unless it is amazing accordian.

The other thing you have to watch out for, it is more of a producer perspective, but on the bass side , if the accordian player isn't amazing, there bass runs can be a bit sloppy, which wreaks havoc, with a bassplayers playing. I generaly will ask the accordian player, to not play the bass end, as it ussually muddys up everything. Of course that is your choice.

-gil

My main idea is to record the accordion stereo but iam concerning about the differences between the left and the right microphone. As far as i know the sound comes from the right side of the instruments (finger board). How effective can a microphone be if placed on the other side of the instrument and if for example the tune requires big movements of the accordion.

And when you say stereo which technique do you mean (spaced, xy pair, mid side etc)? I also plan to use either the AKG 414 or the Neumann U87 there are both available for the recording and theya are great mics...

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:44 am

There are some comments on recording the accordion in a current thread in the "Acoustic Music" forum here: http://www.recording.org/ftopict-35757.html,
including a sample of one of my accordion recordings.

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:10 pm

Gilliland wrote:

There are some comments on recording the accordion in a current thread in the "Acoustic Music" forum here: http://www.recording.org/ftopict-35757.html,
including a sample of one of my accordion recordings.

Thanks for the information. i got what i need in order to experiment and work out the session for the accordion.

I am also thinking to use an SE electronics or a 414 to record the Viola, placed a little bit less than half a meter above the instrument. Any other suggestions?

Especcialy for one of the songs that we gonna record the guitar player will use a resonating acoustic guitar. A while ago i miced up one of these guitar in a live enviroment. The only non dynamic mic that was available at that place was an AKG c1000. The result was more than satisfying for the bar that the live took place but i would like something more.

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:12 pm

Gilliland wrote:

There are some comments on recording the accordion in a current thread in the "Acoustic Music" forum here: http://www.recording.org/ftopict-35757.html,
including a sample of one of my accordion recordings.

Thanks for the information. i got food for thought and many options to try and experiment for the session.

I am also thinking to use an SE electronics or a 414 to record the Viola, placed a little bit less than half a meter above the instrument. Any other suggestions?

Especcialy for one of the songs that we gonna record the guitar player informed me today that he will use a resonating acoustic guitar. A while ago i miced up one of these guitar in a live enviroment. The only non dynamic mic that was available at that place was an AKG c1000. The result was more than satisfying for the bar that the live took place but i would like something more.

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:42 pm

Artkoudos wrote:

Especcialy for one of the songs that we gonna record the guitar player informed me today that he will use a resonating acoustic guitar.

Do you mean a dobro? Jerry Douglas uses an M149, a U67, or a Royer R122 to record his. On stage, he uses a KSM32.

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:43 pm

Gilliland wrote:

Artkoudos wrote:

Especcialy for one of the songs that we gonna record the guitar player informed me today that he will use a resonating acoustic guitar.

Do you mean a dobro? Jerry Douglas uses an M149, a U67, or a Royer R122 to record his. On stage, he uses a KSM32.

As far as i know its a single cone resonator guitar. what about the mic placement? just in front of the main body (single cone) or closer to the strings or to the frets ??

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:06 pm

As far as i know its a single cone resonator guitar. what about the mic placement? just in front of the main body (single cone) or closer to the strings or to the frets ??[/quote]

Adding some more information about the guitar. Its a single cone resonator with a wooden body. i am gonna certainly try the AKG 414 and the U87 that i definitely have available for the session. The session is for tommorow morning so any suggestions will have to made quite soon.

Anyway if i don't get any feedback before the session i already got some help which is really cool.

I also going to let you people know about what i finally did and for the result of the session
Smile

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:12 pm

Artkoudos wrote:

As far as i know its a single cone resonator guitar. what about the mic placement? just in front of the main body (single cone) or closer to the strings or to the frets ??

Adding some more information about the guitar. Its a single cone resonator with a wooden body.
Smile

Sure sounds like a dobro to me. Smile

I guess "resophonic guitar" is the generic term (since Dobro is a trade name).

I've never recorded one. But watching Jerry Douglas on DVD, I can see that he positions his KSM32 about 4-6 inches over the resonator itself, roughly aligned (and in front of) his right hand as it picks the strings. Of course, that's for a stage performance, a more distant position might make sense in the studio.

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:19 pm

Quite a late answer but its never too late!!!

I had the session which was actually a disaster but not because of musicians or because of not being able to get a nice sound but cause the studio crashed down and the technician didn't manage to get it work..

Really bad experience and i am gonna retake the session near the end of the month... Hope this time things will be better.

I had some time though and i tried some micing technigues

I got good sound with the resonator guitar. The accordion was fine i used an SE electronics Z3300a and i really enjoyed the sound. the Microphone was placed on the right but cclose to the middle as well. The only problem was that no matter how far i was placing it or pointing at the middle i couldn't get rid of the keys sound which at some points was really clicky and irritating.

Any suggestions for how to eliminate the problem??

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:53 pm

Artkoudos wrote:

The only problem was that no matter how far i was placing it or pointing at the middle i couldn't get rid of the keys sound which at some points was really clicky and irritating.

Any suggestions for how to eliminate the problem??

I'm betting that it is more a function of the instrument and the player than anything else.

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:18 am

Quote:

I'm betting that it is more a function of the instrument and the player than anything else

yeah that's pretty much the truth but i am wondering if there is something that can be done before the mixdown. Do you think that a click removal tool or something similar will be effective???

I assume that i just have to try it...

Just your opinion

Monday i am also recording a blues band (guitar, Bass, Drums, vocals, Saxophone)..

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:18 pm

Artkoudos wrote:

yeah that's pretty much the truth but i am wondering if there is something that can be done before the mixdown. Do you think that a click removal tool or something similar will be effective???

Frankly, I doubt it, but there's no harm in trying it. If the accordion is going to be mixed into a larger ensemble, the clicks may just fade into the mix, but if it is the lead instrument, you may have to just consider it a part of the sound (like string sound on some guitar recordings). The problem is that the reeds are in close proximity to the keys, so anything you do to try to pull the mic away from the clicking is also going to remove it from the sound of the instrument. Still, pulling back or repositioning the mic may give you some benefit.

I notice some key clicks on my Patrick Street recording, but most of it disappears into the mix. It's really only audible when the accordion is playing without much of the rest of the band. And even then, it's quite subtle.

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:58 pm

Quote:

If the accordion is going to be mixed into a larger ensemble, the clicks may just fade into the mix, but if it is the lead instrument, you may have to just consider it a part of the sound (like string sound on some guitar recordings). The problem is that the reeds are in close proximity to the keys, so anything you do to try to pull the mic away from the clicking is also going to remove it from the sound of the instrument. Still, pulling back or repositioning the mic may give you some benefit.

The other elements will be resonant acoustic Guitar, viola, bass and vocals. But yeah its the "basic" it plays the basic tune for the song. I think it will dissapear (or less audible) with the addition of the rest of the elements.. Maybe a space stereo technique will make it less audible and the sound will be more natural as well ! ! We'll see...

Anyway if i can i'll try afterwards to use the click removal.. There is no harm on trying. Smile

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