Constructing the chorus

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:47 am

Often times I'll find that I'll start a song (the verses) with a four chord progression and the trouble is progressing into something different yet still "catchy" for the chorus.

Sometimes I feel that I can use the progression for the chorus as well, by just changing the vocal melody to "bring it out" (or changing up the bass line), yet it's hard to differentiate the two when you are playing the same thing.

Does anyone construct the chorus first and work from there? And, don't even get me started on a bridge.

I'm taking music theory classes this fall.... I'm thinking that will definitely help.

So, my question is what are your methods for transitioning into the chorus and/or simply developing it. Feel free to use chord examples or techniques.

Thanks!

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:11 pm

I think the best thing to do is analyze pop songs you like. Learn their chord changes and how their melody transitions from one song section to another. You'll find there are no rules, just rules-of-thumb.

Music theory will help you some (with things like relative minors and conventional key changes and such), but as many great songs have been written with no regard to theory as have been with theory imposed. For example, an early negative criticism of The Beatles was that they broke compositional rules.

In a way, music theory is like grammar. It's like sentence diagramming. It's useful to name and dissect the elements of a sentence -- it helps you understand the parts and what they do -- but it doesn't necessarily give you a path to creating an impactful or moving sentence. Same with music theory.

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:28 pm

chrispick wrote:

I think the best thing to do is analyze pop songs you like. Learn their chord changes and how their melody transitions from one song section to another. You'll find there are no rules, just rules-of-thumb.

Music theory will help you some (with things like relative minors and conventional key changes and such), but as many great songs have been written with no regard to theory as have been with theory imposed. For example, an early negative criticism of The Beatles was that they broke compositional rules.

In a way, music theory is like grammar. It's like sentence diagramming. It's useful to name and dissect the elements of a sentence -- it helps you understand the parts and what they do -- but it doesn't necessarily give you a path to creating an impactful or moving sentence. Same with music theory.

That's a good idea (analyzing songs), and I've done that somewhat.

Although I know it can be a very different process for different artists I was wondering if anyone wanted to to share the certain techniques they implement while composing. If you follow a process, or if you just let it come to you.

And I do understand that great songs have been written with no regard to theory. I, too, don't believe it gives you a path to creating something moving - there is no formula to creating something moving, as music is truly in the "ear of the beholder". However, rules do exist in music (and it's okay to break them) but theory gives you the knowledge of what is "right" and that can only help you better understand what you write and what you read. So, for me I know getting an even better grasp on theory will certainly help in creation.

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:37 pm

Well, here are some basic tricks to try and get you started.

Given that you have a verse chord progression and melody you like, try...

...Moving the key up a major second (two half-steps) or a minor third (three half steps) at the chorus. This might "elevate" your song.

or

...Shifting to a major chord progression if coming out of a minor chord progression. Or visa versa. Look into relative minors and how they relate to their dominant majors.

or

...Don't change chords at all, just the melody. Just make sure to also change it rhythmically a bit as well.

Good luck.

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:56 pm

One of my little tricks that I don't realize I'm doing is to sometimes have the bass do a run on a minor third while still in the melody but toward the end of the melody. This gives it sort of a buildup but not quite a bridge and something usually pops out at me.

On the topic "Finishing it without diminishing it" I just posted on how I write. There is a reply on that topic just a couple before me about Mozart that I found interesting and that might help as well.

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:21 am

here's a link with structuring ideas

hope it helps ,,

http://www.tweakheadz.com/recipes.html

SI

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:26 am

Thanks! A nice beginner guide to song development, I appreciate it.

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:43 pm

looks like this threads been dead (hey - i made a rhyme!) a while. but heres my 2 cents.

from what i've gathered about songwriting:

verse: tellse the story.
pre chorus: ramps up to the chorus
chorus: is the point of the story and should be the "biggest" section in terms of how it draws your attention.

but it sounds like you dont have a pre chorus so disregard the little bit about the pre. (but then the end of your verse should do the ramping up to the chorus...)

so to answer your question (cause i really havent have i??), you could keep the same chords as verse, but add some sort of aux percussion (a shaker, etc.) to the mix. or keep the same chords but change the melody (a really good idea would be to change the rhythm as well as the notes in your melody). or keep the same chords, change melody and add harmonies. or do all 3. or none. oh wait... Smile

or if you want to change chords, you can use 2 chords but hold them twice as long as the verse chords (so if there are 4 chords in the verse changes for 2 beats each, make the chorus 2 chords long but hold each one for 4 beats). its a neat little trick that works for me. usually some sort of feel change works for a chorus (which is what this does.)

just remember the chorus should stick out and be memorable. and the verse or pre chorus should "ramp" up to it to introduce it. at the very least it should be somewhat different from the verse. (and when i say should, i mean: according to the research i've done on songwriting. bands like Radio are huge and dont follow any of this. point being: listen to advice but follow your muse.)

and also, not to throw a wrench in your works: theory may not necessarily help with songwriting. it'll teach you how to read music better and to discern why a scale does this or that, or what makes a Fmin7 an Fmin7. but getting good books on songwriting and lyric writing will help you become a better songwriter. i'd hate for you to spend a lot of money and not get what you expected for it. just trying to help!

talk to good songwriters that you know. and try to get songwriting techniques of your favorite songwriters in magz etc ... that'll help!

good luck!

Rado

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:04 pm

Thanks for your advice!

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:05 pm

#1 rule of pop music; should have cool, transcendent chorus.
conclusion; write a cool transcendent chorus FIRST!
Then at least you have what is arguably the most imperative part of the song. chorus =hook, hook = musical hook + lyrical hook. Once you have a killer chorus, the verses write easier. The verses are to play around and set up the chorus...think about this: how can you set something up if it doesnt exist yet?

Peace,
Nate

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:07 pm

I think more than "tricks" or such it's an experience thing. If you say your verses are catchy and really hammer home a theme, well then maybe that's your chorus and you need to write something else for the verse. It's not uncommon to write what you think is a certain part (a verse, for instance) only later to realize you put the verse lyrics to what should be the chorus chords.

Remember - the catchiest ideas go to the chorus (or hook or refrain). Regardless of where you put them to start. You need to be objective with yourself when you write and be able to honestly evaluate what you've done and its strengths and weaknesses.

I think a theory coarse is a great idea - you'll learn a lot more about music and be able to use that to further your writing. You'll learn about harmonic & melodic development, key changes/modulation (direct modulation, pivot chord modulation, etc), secondary & substitute dominants, modal relationships, et al.

As someone else mentioned - study those who (in your opinions) are already successful at writing. Take a handful of songs you feel are what you are going for and put them under a microscope. But, be careful when doing this to separate the writing from the production/arranging. Distill the song down to its basic form as a lead sheet (chords and melody) and try to see if you can figure out how & why it works.

If you find you are getting really stuck- try writing in a different format than you usually do to "break" any writing habits you have aquired and make yourself explore new areas.

Typical pop formats:
Verse - Chorus (no bridge)
Verse - Chorus w/ transitional bridge (sometimes called a pre-chorus).
Verse - Chorus w/ primary bridge
Verse - Refrain

Non-typical formats:
Through composed (no repeated sections - not very pop friendly but a great writing exercise).
AABA (ala jazz standards)
AABBCCAA (ala ethnic folk songs)

And lastly, try composing on a different instrument than your main instrument. Being a guitarist - I find I write much differently when I sit at a piano to write.

And more so than that - keep writing and exploring new ideas. When I feel frustrated or insecure about my work I think back to my days at music school and I always come back to 2 things my songwriting professor said:

When I asked him how to know if I was a writer he simply said "writers write".

When I asked how he could simply "let go" of a song when he was done with it he said "the best song I've ever written is the next song I'll write".

In other words...you get better with each song you write. Just like with anything with music, it's an unending learning process.

HTH

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:29 am

There is no rule to writing songs. If you look at hits of the past (and present) you'll find a huge variety of forms, chord progrssions (sometimes two in the entire songs), lyrics, etc...

One of the most used forms in today's pop music would be:

Intro
Verse 1
Pre-Chr
Chorus
(2-4 bars music break)
Verse 2
Pre-Chr
Chorus
Bridge
Break
1/2 chorus only vocals
Chorus out (rhythm in)...

There are variations to that which consists of break sections, etc...

I echo what was said earlier: write the CHORUS first. Without the chorus you don't have a song.

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:24 am

I don't agree that anyone should apply themselves to an arbitrary rule such as "write the chorus first". What if the verse comes to you before the chorus?

Write how you write, just be cognizent of the fact that you need to stick to a format & within each sub-part of that format you need to stick to a paradigm & rhyme sceme.

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