recording band live.

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:50 pm

My band has been working on recording live in our little studio and I had a question about volume. i heard that when a cabinet is turned up loud it makes the bass notes peak higher. is this true? If then should we record our disstorded amps not cranked to get a more even sound?

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:53 pm

OK. First off, when you are recording guitar amps that are cranked up, that sound will spill over into all the other mics. Not good because that
sound isn't the same as the sound hitting the amp's mic. It's what we call "off-axis coloration". That means MUD in the real world. So you want to definitely isolate each amp from blasting into the other guy's mic, dig?
Plus, you want to protect your hearing and keep the neighbors from bitchin'. Then there is the issue of the sound being so loud that the mic will be sending a VERY strong signal to the little preamp circuit at the mic input on your mixer or soundcard. THIS will overload the mic input and that sounds like crap...that's why there are gain pots at the mic input on mixers. But you can still OD that mic input if the amp is too loud....
As to the bass level when an amp is turned up, that is the result of the human ear being less sensitive to real low and very high frequencies than the midrange frequencies. Your ears don't register those outter ranges as well at lower volumes. Trust me, this gets worse with age, so protect your hearing when you're young!
Finally, mic placement. First you need to pick out the speaker in each cab that you are going to record. Listen to the cab and determine if any of the speakers in it are dead, buzzing, farting, etc. You can usually determine that 1 of the speakers in a cab sounds "better" than the others. That's what you need to do. THEN you have to physically locate the cone edge by either pulling off the grille or using a flashlight to see through it. I would place a 609 flat against the grille, then pull it away from it by maybe an inch or 2. Then I'd start at the center of the speaker and work my way AWAY from the center, towards the edge of the cone, maybe halfway between those 2 points, dig? The center tends to be way too bright and "fizzy" sounding, and gets more balanced as you go out to the edge. But, for all I know, you may like that brighter sound, so you have to experiment. Hope that helps!

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:44 pm

In addition to what Moonbaby wrote:
Only turn up the amps until you get the sound that you're looking for. There's just no point in going louder than what you need, and actually works against you. The lowest volume you can obtain and still get a good amp sound will work wonders.

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:15 am

When talking about guitar and using sealed cabinets, not open backed amps, yes, some cabs REALLY resonate more than others, and some reveal mechanical vibrations add louder volumes. Some of the Boogie slant cabs are notorious for this. We used to take a 2x4 and brace the baffle in between the four drivers.

Your placement of the amps in the room could affect this as well. I never put my cabs against a wall, or in a corner, giving it the same consideration I would a studio monitor, as it adds to the bass response.

As for tone, you will find that many bands that record live have their amps in ISO rooms or they use low watt amps with low watt drivers. This way they get the distortion and break up that is required, without the ear splitting decibel levels and bleed into other mics. Tom Petty is a great example. Read up on his sessions. Hard rock and metal guys mostly use their amps in ISOs, or have power soaks on their amps to keep the volume down and get the shred.

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:18 pm

when you turn up your amp, the volume and tone is decieving when you stand 5 feet away. your ear isnt going to be hearing the same sound as the mic or recording. so, the other guitar player wants it loud so his tone "sounds good" but it sounds worse when you record it.

my question was for my other band, this is music ive made by self. one song the distorted guitar doesnt sound good (high toned and shredy), but i like it on the first two. i want a new mic for my drums (i used a pair of e609's on them). the mic on the bass of the djimbe sounds good, i want the new mic for the head of the drum (its too "tingy"). I am looking to get a sennheiser 614 mainly for drum micing and other odd instruments. and im going to get an art gold pre for guitars. my pres now are on a yamaha mg12 going into a motu converter. my mixer is definetly a weak point.

i should get new pres first right?

whats the difference of cardioid and super cardioid?

http://www.myspace.com/themortaldiety

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:01 pm

OK. First, why are you stuck on Sennheiser mics? If you need a mic that is good on drums and "other odd instruments" get a Shure SM57. Or maybe an Audix model i5 which is a tad brighter sounding.

As far as mic preamps are concerned, the ART is a fancy-looking box, but the pre in it is probably no better quality then what's in the Yamaha mixer you already have. The Yamaha is not perfect, but you can't blame it if the recordings suck.

And to your question on the polar patterns of the mics, I highly recommend that you go to the Shure Brothers Audio website and look at the various models. You will notice that the "Beta" series is mainly supercardioid, and that the "SM" series is mainly cardioid. They have pretty pictures and graphs/plots to illustrate the differences. Generally, a cardioid mic is least sensitive at the very rear of the mic head. The supercardioid is least sensitive towards the sides and back. This is mainly done to control feedback and mic bleedthrough between mics, but a tighter pattern (like supercardioid or hypercardioid) tends to pick up less of the room acoustics when recording...

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:11 pm

moonbaby wrote:

get a Shure SM57

If you can't get a guitar amp to sound good through a 57, you need a new amp. Very Happy

Yea, other mics may sound better for specific uses... but for the price and versatility of a Shure SM57, I'd default to that for guitars any day.

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:41 pm

as far as guitar mics go the e609 is better to me than the sm57. i dont think my recordings suck, i know that i am being limited by lower quallity equipment. the reason i would get something before a 57 is because i dont think that they are the "go to mic" other mics are better. people try and tell me marshall for heavy distortion, or use vintage 30's in your marshall cab. i hate marshall, its not good to me. it may work for others though. i feel the same way about the 57's. they may work for others though. if i use standard equipment i get a standard sound. I dont want to be just standard.

Quote:

Yea, other mics may sound better for specific uses... but for the price and versatility of a Shure SM57, I'd default to that for guitars any day.

would you substitute a better sounding mic for a 57 because it is low in price and versitile? thats what your statement is leading me to believe.

Quote:

As far as mic preamps are concerned, the ART is a fancy-looking box, but the pre in it is probably no better quality then what's in the Yamaha mixer you already have. The Yamaha is not perfect, but you can't blame it if the recordings suck

i dont think my recording suck, if the art ones arent better then i will buy better ones still. are you suggesting that i dont upgrade my equipment? i dont get this statement, better pres will make recordings sound better.

i think that my recordings sound fine granted the equipment that i used. i just want to make them better.

thx for info on mic patterns.

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:56 pm

musical_poet wrote:

Quote:

Yea, other mics may sound better for specific uses... but for the price and versatility of a Shure SM57, I'd default to that for guitars any day.

would you substitute a better sounding mic for a 57 because it is low in price and versitile? thats what your statement is leading me to believe.

No. I personally have not had a better experience than a 57 for recording guitar cabs. That's my opinion.

But, I love my Marshall tone. I hate Mesa tone. That, just the same, is an opinion. That's what people here can offer you... dig?

My opinion is that a 57 is the way to go for miking cabs. I also didn't vote for GW Bush, and obviously I wasn't in the majority there, either.

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:06 pm

a n e609 is fine
if you like the sound of it then stick with it

I use an SM57 with either a414 as a room mic and sometime I use a cheap RodeNT1 for room

I often use my cheapest Mic-pre on the close guitar with the 57.

I don't use that Mic-pre and the 57 BECAUSE they are cheap but BECAUSE I like that combination the best.

and I have many units and Mics to chose from.

AND
here is the most important bit
it's not how GOOD it sound when solo-ed but how well is fits into the overall recording and the nature of the sound that you are trying to achieve.

Often a solo-ed individual track can sound ordinary
but once IN CONTEXT and in the mix things sit right
.....
Rolling Eyes

I more often than not find I have use an SM57 close on a 12 inch speaker for Rock Guitars

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:06 pm

lol, GW. yah i dont like mesa, i like bogner. too bad i cant offord one. i have laney amp head and crate cab. the crate is a cheaper cab than marshal but i like it better. i dont really care for the v 30's in most cabs. i run an effect loop through my laney into a bbe maxiwhutsit. i use to like it but now im tired of the more brittle tone that i once found pleasing.

for recording i use a 15 watt crate cheap as shit amp through my 4x12 cab to improve the tone. it sounds better than my 1500 dollar laney head (which by the way i just got nice new tubes in). wow i think i just convinced myself to spend less on a new mic. Smile

maybe sm sounds better on my top djimbe head than i thought on my cab. i havent tried that.

kev, what do you suggest i use for pre then? should i just upgrade my mixer?

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