Ceiling foam

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:00 pm

My ceiling is 8 feet tall and i have carpet, i hear that if you foam the whole ceiling it makes it sound as though i accually have a high ceiling. Is my ceiling low enough to achieve this? Should i do this?

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:02 pm

pow420 wrote:

My ceiling is 8 feet tall and i have carpet, i hear that if you foam the whole ceiling it makes it sound as though i accually have a high ceiling. Is my ceiling low enough to achieve this? Should i do this?

Uuuuuh..... yeah.

Don't mean to be a smartass, but... OK you got carpet.

Where?

Who did you hear the "thing" about "foam" doing this magic with the disappearing ceiling "thing"?

Can you be a bit more specific about what type of foam?

Should you do this? In a word...

Not just no, but hell no!

(At least not without a LOT more information and proofing of your point!)

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:54 am

I've read the same thing about deadening the ceiling to achieve the high ceiling effect, but I believe in order to achieve the proper effect of having the "natural" sounding hard floor/soft ceiling recording, you need to have a reflective floor. I assume you're not planning on putting carpet on the ceiling, it's just already on the floor right?

Have a good one,
Wyatt

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:07 pm

yeah the carpet is on the floor and im going to get hard wood floor soon. Does it matter if its laminent floor like pergo?

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:48 pm

pow420 wrote:

yeah the carpet is on the floor and im going to get hard wood floor soon. Does it matter if its laminent floor like pergo?

OK, things are beginning to be clarified... (There's nothing like the details to cloud the issues, right?!?)

If you are desirous of a "natural" sounding ennvironment... hard floors & soft ceilings... yes.

As far as "Pergo" and the other laminates vs. other materials... There are wildly varying grade of laminate flooring. Generally, you always need to put some sort of padding under the flooring to keep the flooring "quiet". Not such a bad thing unless you use a lower grade of flooring and/or padding. Here's why... if you spill a liquid/mop the flooring with a too wet of a mop, the flooring can swell, buckle and be ruined.

I put a good grade of laminate in my home. When I walk across it, in shoes, but especially in socks/barefoot, I hear a NASTY 4-5KHz artifact. I might not be there in a studio environment, but I am personally not going to risk it.

If you use a real hardwood, concrete, tile, etc, the surfaces seem to be much more durable and would guess to be a better value.

My .02

Max

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:07 pm

pow420 wrote:

My ceiling is 8 feet tall and i have carpet, i hear that if you foam the whole ceiling it makes it sound as though i accually have a high ceiling. Is my ceiling low enough to achieve this? Should i do this?

Covering all or much of the ceiling makes sense in a small room, especially if you plan to record things like drums with overhead microphones.

So far as making the ceiling "sound" higher, this is true. Whether the ceiling is infinitely high or infinitely absorptive, either way sound goes up and doesn't come back. So you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference blind-folded. Of course, this is not the same as having a high ceiling in a really nice live room like you'll find at the Hit Factory etc. But you're not going to get that in a small room no matter what you do, so it makes more sense to aim for fully absorbent. Or at least absorbent in those places where it matters like over a drum set.

--Ethan

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:07 pm

I'm planning on getting a couple of sheets of plywood and cutting them into sections that can be moved/stored away if need be, or if I want to try recording with soft floor/soft ceiling. No sense buying an area rug when there's already carpet underneath heh. I'm just going to have a corner treated in this fashion for the drums to sit in since I don't want to a) rip up all the retro carpet in my basement and b) treat the entire ceiling.

Have a good one,
Wyatt

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:44 pm

thanks guys, over the drums should it be just foam or foam and deflectors? Another question i have is if im going to have the control room where im recording( its my personal room) should i set up the foam and deflectors the same as if they were two seperate places?

I also have some issues with my doors, the one coming into my room is hollow with cardboard inside any suggestions on what to do to it? The door to my closet has like 100 diagonal panels in the middle all the way down that let air pass should i just foam it or? lol and finally at the end of the room i have 2 big sliding glass doors anything i should do to them?

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:46 pm

pow420 wrote:

thanks guys, over the drums should it be just foam or foam and deflectors? Another question i have is if im going to have the control room where im recording( its my personal room) should i set up the foam and deflectors the same as if they were two seperate places?

I also have some issues with my doors, the one coming into my room is hollow with cardboard inside any suggestions on what to do to it? The door to my closet has like 100 diagonal panels in the middle all the way down that let air pass should i just foam it or? lol and finally at the end of the room i have 2 big sliding glass doors anything i should do to them?

WHOOOOOAAA.... Slow down there big fella....

Let's get a few more pieces of information together first. (This is from Rod's sticky at the top of the forum)

Quote:

Edit your profile to include your location. This is very important, because this is a worldwide resource, and as such, material costs and availability vary widely. For example, masonry is cheaper than gypsum in some parts of the globe, whereas it's the exact opposite in other regions. We're not asking for your address or credit card number, just a country will do.

Start your post with an overview of your goals and where you are in the process... Research? Planning? Construction already underway? Finished, and wanna know why it doesn't work?

HOW LOUD are you, and how picky/loud are your neighbors? How close? This is subjective, so you will need to buy something like the Radio Shack Sound Level Meter

Trust me, if you're recording/mixing music you should be using this ALWAYS, so it's not a waste of money. For music at typical mix levels, you want to use "C" weighting, slow. The human ear has no way of "measuring" ABSOLUTE sound levels; it just adapts to what's there, and calls that "normal" - so if you keep raising the volume, pretty soon you're mixing at 110 dB, ruining your hearing and neighbor "atta-boy" points, etc - the SPL meter helps you keep levels constant and safe.

For all other tests, the authorities virtually ALWAYS use A weighting, and (I think) slow response. So for compliance, use "A" weighting measurements.

Include as much detail as possible about the existing construction. Having details about anatomy of your existing floor, walls, and ceiling is critical. In your searches of the forum, you'll likely find examples of the kinds of details that are needed, and you'll see that the quality and timeliness of the advice given are affected by the level of detail provided.

Please don't tell us you want to float your floor if you are building on an upper level - this is almost always impractical, and ALWAYS will require a LOCAL ENGINEER to verify that it will be safe.

Remember that acoustics is THREE DIMENSIONAL, not two - when you give dimensions, we need Length, Width, Height, plus any NON-parallel features of the room.

Include drawings of what you're describing if at all possible. They do not need to be professional or perfectly to scale, but they do need to account for the necessary details. Cropping your drawing will allow you to make the important parts larger and more legible without increasing the overall size. See next...

Please resize as necessary to keep graphics BETWEEN 700 and 750 pixels wide - otherwise it's either too small for details or it forces people to scroll sideways to read every line of text.

If you link to pix OFF this site, please make sure THOSE pix aren't oversized either - it causes the SAME PROBLEM.

After that, think about your budget... how much money you willing to sink into this? Because this will ultimately determine whether you will use strictly absorbtion or a combination of absorbtion and difussion... it boils down to the design, and design is dictated by your budget. (Make sense?)

But, if you just want the short answer for a "low" dollar budget... no diffusion... and ALL THE ABSORBTION THAT YOU CAN AFFORD!
Put SuperChunk's in ALL of the corners... vertical and the ceiling/wall corners. Then hang 703 couds over the entire ceiling.... just be sure that the joists can handle the extra load!

Otherwise, take a few minutes and go through the sticky's points and let's see if Rod, Steve, Ethan and some of the other regulars can get you started down the RIGHT path to getting you what you need.

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:34 am

The foam is good for high/high mid freq, not for the real problem – lower freq. If you foam the room it will ended as boxy, nasal, lifeles, vacumized, unpleasure recording environment, your frustration and wasted money.

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:06 pm

Groff wrote:

The foam is good for high/high mid freq, not for the real problem – lower freq. If you foam the room it will ended as boxy, nasal, lifeles, vacumized, unpleasure recording environment, your frustration and wasted money.

so i shouldnt do anything to it? or are u saying just bass traps?

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:32 pm

You will need a combination of the two; mid-high absorbtion on the ceiling and some bass traps in verticle (wall-to-wall) and horizontal (ceiling-to-wall) corners. You have to do both to get absorbtion throughout the entire frequency range, even in places like a vocal booth, right Ethan? Very Happy

Have a good one,
Wyatt

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:55 pm

pow420 wrote:

Groff wrote:

The foam is good for high/high mid freq, not for the real problem – lower freq. If you foam the room it will ended as boxy, nasal, lifeles, vacumized, unpleasure recording environment, your frustration and wasted money.

so i shouldnt do anything to it? or are u saying just bass traps?

Recording room and control room are different. If you planning to make one room for all, IMHO the way to go is:

1.hard floor. Manny options, but you need the noiseless one. I'm planning to put linoleum in my rec. room. Not fancy but quiet and is hard enough for reflection.

2. soft ceiling. Cover as much as possible but live the space between the absorber and the ceiling (at least in1:1 ratio). 4'' OC 703 covered with „breath through“ cloth would do great job. Of course, as mentioned before, it's important to know how much of weight can handle existing ceiling (or walls) because of hanging. If you can find only higher density fiber/mineral wool than 703, you can do combination (foam to front, wool behind).

3. broadband traps in ALL corners. The deeper/wider the better.

4. walls. For control room – maximum symmetry, for recording room – asymmetry. One wall (the back wall in control room) in full broadband absorption (similar to ceiling) this is most important place for absorption (first reflection point). For side walls, make portable slat traps/slot resonator, so you can change their positions when mixing/recording (a/symmetry). Slats would reflect high and mid and slots with insulation inside would „suck“ and absorb lower freq.

5. The foam could help as addition to mineral wool (RFZ at mixing position).

6. kick the computer out of this room. Drill small hole trough the wall for cables.

7. go and get Rod's book. You have that all in one place and with many details. It's affordable and worth every coin. Believe me.

Best regards

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:39 pm

wow groff thanks alot, for my sound leaks does is this stuff expensive and does it work? http://www.zerointernational.com/

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:58 pm

bump

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