channel driven amps vs. pedals / op-amps

insignificant other Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 94

the channel driven amps like the 5150, bogner, hughes and kettner, etc., do these use monolithic op-amps for their distortion channels?

do most (not multi-fx) guitar pedals (say for example boss, MXR, etc.) use discrete op-amps?

also do the orange and hiwatt multi-channel amps use monolithic or discrete op-amps for the distortion channels?

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:29 pm

Why not call the manufacturers and ask your questions.

insignificant other Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 94

i don't get the point to your statement.

edit: nevermind, please don't waste space explaining it to me as i have a feeling you will try (especially being a moderator and all). it was pointless there is no good answer or explination

i will call the manufacturer, thanks for you awesome help and advice. you're making recording.org a great place to seek answers for questions concerning audio give yourself a pat on the back man

just out of curiosity, is that another way of saying you have absolutely no idea?
(feel free to answer that one, it'll probably give you more of a thrill to go the runaround and explain to me why you even bothered to make that stupid ass comment in the first place rather than to just simply ignore the topic if you had no idea what the answer is to my question)

why not just go to prosoundweb.com and ask my questions, you're a joke buddy
one things for sure don't worry because i won't be asking YOU anything ever again, not that i ever did in the first place

**anyone else who has a genuine interest in this topic, please don't let sheet sway you from response, this isn't a personal game it's the pursuit of audio engineering 'enlightenment,' some people forget that sometimes

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 11:18 pm

hey stairway.... why not take a moment and answer a few questions for the newbies.... if imight suggest on a philosphical and ethical basis the way we pay for our own enlightenment is through enlightening others....

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 5:43 am

andshesbuyingastairway wrote:

i don't get the point to your statement.

edit: nevermind, please don't waste space explaining it to me as i have a feeling you will try (especially being a moderator and all). it was pointless there is no good answer or explination

i will call the manufacturer, thanks for you awesome help and advice. you're making recording.org a great place to seek answers for questions concerning audio give yourself a pat on the back man

just out of curiosity, is that another way of saying you have absolutely no idea?
(feel free to answer that one, it'll probably give you more of a thrill to go the runaround and explain to me why you even bothered to make that stupid ass comment in the first place rather than to just simply ignore the topic if you had no idea what the answer is to my question)

why not just go to prosoundweb.com and ask my questions, you're a joke buddy
one things for sure don't worry because i won't be asking YOU anything ever again, not that i ever did in the first place

**anyone else who has a genuine interest in this topic, please don't let sheet sway you from response, this isn't a personal game it's the pursuit of audio engineering 'enlightenment,' some people forget that sometimes

No you smart butt. It only seems logical to call the people that design, manufacture and sell the amps in question. When I have a question about my studio gear, I don't look on a message board to see if someone can walk me through something. I go to the source, the manufacturer, to see why things are the way that they are, THEN I go to the boards to see what others are doing to work around issues/limitations.

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:17 am

The question is moot. Neither Orange or Hiwatt guitar amps (except for the little bullshit practice amps they market from China) use "monolithic' circuit designs. They use a device called a "tube", and they probably 'stack' them in some sort of dual-triode arrangement to heap lots of gain on the input...

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:14 am

andshesbuyingastairway wrote:

the channel driven amps like the 5150, bogner, hughes and kettner, etc., do these use monolithic op-amps for their distortion channels?

As a designer I must say that for the distortion channel I would'nt really care as I would be looking for distortion whatever. Certainly an op-amp makes it simpler and cheaper to create more complex overdrive circuitry rather than the rather ubiquitous soft limiting approach. What is used by any manufacturer is likely to be determined by its model's vintage rather than any particular design philosophy.

andshesbuyingastairway wrote:

do most (not multi-fx) guitar pedals (say for example boss, MXR, etc.) use discrete op-amps?

also do the orange and hiwatt multi-channel amps use monolithic or discrete op-amps for the distortion channels?

I think your knowledge is a bit lacking here as these are not the only options. I have only seen "discrete op-amps" used in things such as SSL pre-amp sections etc. I would not consider their limitations and expense in a guitar FX pedal. Many of the pedals use discrete circuitry (but NOT discrete op-amps) - examples Cry baby, MXR compressor, MXR gate, several BOSS pedals. Some FX pedals do use op-amps though - depends very much on the vintage and effect in question.

What beats me though is why do you care? Choose the pedal/amp that floats your boat!

To be certain for any particular amp/pedal you will need to do exactly what sheet suggested so why get uppity? It's the only way you will get a complete answer to your rather nebulous question.

insignificant other Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 94

moonbaby; i'm not implying they use monolithic circuit designs. i'm aware they use tubes. i'm implying they used hybrid IC designs with discrete (tubes) and possibly monolithic op-amps. although it make more since to me that the hiwatt and orange in particular would use discrete op-amps or some other form of discrete circuitry for their gain channels. i understand what you are saying but i am highly doubtful that their overdrive channels are created by stacking two tubes in the preamp. it's possible though, i'm not familiar with the circuitry which is why i ask in the first place.

say we are talking about the peavey 5150, well that uses two tubes in the preamp as well, but i'm willing to bet it's distortion channel is higher gain than marshall with 3 tubes or say laney with 4. or what about the newer marshalls that use one tube in the preamp. the point is all the newer channel divided models use less tubes for the most part than the older single ch. models. so hence my questioning, where in the world is all that gain coming from?

my knowledge is limited? okay then mr. knowledgable, what discrete circuitry are you referring to that is used in these pedals?

p.s. technically monolithic designs DO employ tubes.

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:56 am

You sure do like saying the word, "monolithic", don't you? Laughing

Yes, I'm sure that some of these manufacturers (especially the ones that don't state that their circuits are 'point-to-point') use some sort of IC in lieu of an extra preamp tube to get 'high gain' performance. Both tube and amp manufacurers have always griped that a preamp tube was almost as expensive as a power tube to make and utilize in the product. Bypassing one or more greatly reduces cost. It just doesn't sound the same, IMHO.
BTW, you should contact a company called, "Analog Devices". They also use the tradenames, "Precision Monolithic", and "SSM" (Solid State Music"). They offer excellent documentation on deigns using their IC's, ranging from compressors, to preamps/mixers, mute circuits, gates, analog synths, and much more. They will gladly send you their handbook(s), I'm sure. Check them out.

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 8:09 am

Hey andshesbuyingastairway,

Many of the schematics you'd like to compare can be found here:

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schempage.php?cat=1

CHAD

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:29 pm

Seedlings wrote:

Hey andshesbuyingastairway,

Many of the schematics you'd like to compare can be found here:

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schempage.php?cat=1

CHAD

whoa..... talk about schemo heaven... thnx for the link....

insignificant other Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 94

yeah for the sake of consistency, i do like using the word monolithic. sure a lot of badass electrical engineers don't give a fuck about terminology, but i'm not a badass engineer (thought you knew that by me asking these types of questions in the first place.) that's a cool site but i'm not a computer programmer, i can't read java, and i can't read this. i can't read music either, doesn't mean i can't play any piece of music i want. it just means i can't read it. so if you CAN read this and answer my simple question, then why not post it? i'm not asking really intricate questions, they are only concerning basic topology yet you are acting like you are taking offense to it.

spread the knowledge if you've got it man, don't redirect me

either that or can you tell me what little symbol represents the op-amps and how i would read the schematics to determine the answers to my questions please?

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:19 am

andshesbuyingastairway wrote:

my knowledge is limited? okay then mr. knowledgable, what discrete circuitry are you referring to that is used in these pedals?

I can only presume this is directed at me. I also presume that your questions were seeking information due to your lack of knowledge on the subject (which by definition must be from someone more knowledgeable on the subject). With this derogatory response though I have lost all interest in trying to help you.

Good links have been provided but as it now seems that you cannot read schematics how do you expect to understand the design subtleties? Like I said before, just go with whatever floats your boat.

andshesbuyingastairway wrote:

p.s. technically monolithic designs DO employ tubes.

BS.

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:58 am

Plug in my guitar... flip on the power to the mesa...hit a power chord....Sweet sound Smile

look at the back of amp yep its got tubes Smile

ok I am happy! Sometimes I get bogged down in the details and forget that it boils down to what sounds good and what doesn't whether it uses tubes, transistors or both. Curiosity is good as long as you have perspective.

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:03 am

Ya know, I believe that this guy IS liquidstudio, just by his tendency to argue back when he gets an answer he doesn't like to one of his moot, moronic questions. We are here to help those in the audio and music business , not the literacy-challenged. Good call, Mr. Ease, no more answering this guy. Where's Tommy Mod these days, anyway?

This topic sponsored by: