A quick way for a cappella choir recording?

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:10 am

I have been asked to make concert recordings af a quite good choir (a cappela, about 24 singers) where I am one of the singers myself. I have no experience in that regard but are the 'technical guy' in the choir and do also the concert light. Now I do not worry so much about the gear necessary, also because that expense will be covered by the choir anyway. My main concern is whether the entire idea is practical, since recordings would be simply made by setting mics up on the basis of a quick look of relative distances, maybe have a quick check with some headphones during a half hour rehearsal before the concert, and start the recording without any more intervention from my part. After the concert I would then bring home my 'catch' and see what to do with it.

The concerts would usually be given in rather 'acustic' reverberant large halls, typically churches (anywhere between 100 and 1000 seats). Since the choir is regularly making CD recordings with professional sound technicians/producers and ditto equipment costing tenths of thousands of dollar, there is no doubt the people know how the 'right stuff' sounds. I am not asked to compete with the CD's of course, however if the result of my work is put on a stereo, I still think it should sound OK and not too embarrasing, neither technically (hiss, distortion, colour, whatever) nor acustically (room, balance, etc.)

Any comments on whether I should go further with that suggestion, which could be fun and a challenge, or should I just let it be to save me from a lot of frustration.

So the quick version of my question is: Can one do a reasonable recording without being a prof sound-technician with a lot of knowledge and a truck full of gear. I my naive conception I would try to simply place two omnis on a 3 to 4 m stand pretty close to the conductor as simple AB pair and then record everything with a solidstate recorder (for example Fostex FR2 or similar).

Thanks in andvance for your comments

recordwithnosweat

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 12:46 pm

Well, it's certainly worth a go, even if just for the experience. What type are your omnis? Is the choir in rows or arranged in a semicircle? What separation distance were you thinking of using between the two mics?

You may find that omnis in A-B give too much reverberation from the hall (or church), and that cardioids in ORTF or one of the other near-coincident configurations would give a better balance of direct sound to reverberant sound. I've just done some choir recordings in a very reverberant venue using a Rode NT4 stereo mic with excellent results. The singers were in a semicircle with no conductor in front of them, but it took a bit of forward-and-back adjustment of mic position to get the right balance.

I've not used an FR2, but it looks a reasonable machine for this sort of work. To set a level, you should get the choir to rehearse their loudest piece (obviously without you amongst them) and set the gains for a peak of not more than -6dBFS. This allows for more enthusiastic singing during the actual performance when you set the recorder running unattended.

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 1:38 pm

Hi, go ahead. It is definitely possible to get very good recordings with "only" two mics and a recorder. I often record that way myself, playing the trombone in symphony orchestras, and then making a CD of the results to the members.

My setup includes a Sound Devices 722, but I would expect the FR2 to be quite up to the work. My favourite mic is a pair of Schoeps in ORTF (I use an MSTC64) as it seems to give decent results in most acoustics. Omnis are better to my ears, but also much more sensitive to the acoustics of the room. As always with mics, good quality will cost you a bit. On the other they do last a lifetime.

Important to have is a mic stand going high enough, I use a Manfrotto 004 which I can highly recommend. Put the mics up, record the rehearsals and try position around to find the really sweet spot. A bit of experimenting is good to do, and a bit of experience will help in getting there quicker. Expect to be surprised, both positively and negatively, as things never turn out as expected when on location.

Gunnar

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:24 pm

Thanks for the reply. Regarding the stand I already have various stands for lighting , with maximum height of 5 m. The choir would usually be placed
in two rows (women in front of men) in an U shape approx. 8 m in diameter. My idea was to place AB omnis approx. 4m up in the air right behind the conductor. In that case basically all singers are some 5 to 6 m away from the mics.

My concern is actually to make way to much fuzz out of the recording (mic placement, me monitoring, etc). Also the stand has a considerable size, I need to protect cables from the audience, etc. The reason for being at a given locating is defenitely for the concert not for me doing the recording.

Regarding the mics (also still to be purchased), I have been told by some of the sound-engineers that have been recording the choir, that the omnis are less problematic to get placed all right. I might of course get to much room, but in any case the voices get nicely mixed without me needing to adjust direction and placement of cardiods. The advise basically has been, if one gets to much of reflections, then place the mics closer. However, it is clear closer than 4 to 5 m to the source will be impossible.

If you want to make suggestions for mics and other equipment, the suggested budget was somewhere between 1500 and 2000$, for the mics itself I would hope to spend 1000 for a pair.

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:59 am

Hmm....with a distance of 4 to 5 meters in a highly reverberant space, you are not going to like your results with omnis. It will be a wash of reverb. If it were a 300 person chorus, maybe not, but for a smaller chorus....nope - not good.

4-5 meters would definitely be suited better for ORTF or even MS. (There's a Schoeps MS set on Ebay for a little bit more than your budget:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Schoeps-CMC6-US-Edition-MS-Stereo-Microphone-Set_W0QQitemZ290118234445QQihZ019QQcategoryZ41466QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem )

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:41 am

Cucco

Its not the first time I have heard this advice, not to go for AB with omnis, but to use cardiods in something like ORTF. I am about ready to believe that your are right.

The initial suggestion to use omnis came from the professional who did quite a few of our CD recordings. And here the truth is, that he did rely on two alternative mains (both AB omnis, approx 50 cm apart and a set of cardiods in something close to ORTF). plus 8 near field mics, etc. He wasn't short of channels and neither mics and most those were DPA's, anyway.

If I would aim for cardiods, the Schoeps exceed my budget quite a bit. The type of mic which has been suggested to me in the shops were in the range of Oktava MK012, SE 3a (are these small diaphragms, actually?), Rode NT4. I found myself on the net MBHO (MBNM 440 can maybe just be squeezed in the budget). Any of these good enough for my purpose?

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:44 pm

Yikes!!

8 MORE channels in addition to the 4 mains???

For most chorus work (unless there is a lot of instrumentation and staging), I can get by with 4 to 6 mics. I used 12 tracks recently for a recording of a chorus made up of 150 persons, a 30 person orchestra, a pipe organ and a brass sextet and rarely did I ever have more than 8 channels live at any time.

Anyway, back on subject -

I would personally avoid the cheaper chinese mics (Oktava - most are made in China now, only a few, hard-to-distinguish versions are actually made in Russia and the SEs are chinese). The Rodes are very nice mics, especially for the price. As well, the MBHOs are quite nice. You might want to consider the Rode NT55s (since they come with both omni and cardioid caps so you can give them both a try). Also the new Mojave pencil mics are rumored to be quite nice (I will probably buy a pair in the near future!). They are a tad pricey, but might very well be worth it!

Other mics to consider -
Earthworks - they make a few more affordable pair of directionals and omnis

Josephson - quite nice

You can often pick up a matched pair of KM184s on Ebay for not much. I'm not a big fan of them myself, but that's in comparison to my Schoeps and Gefells. Without the direct comparison, they're quite decent. Add to that, they have a slight (not) HF boost which could actually work to your advantage given the distances you are working with.

Hope this helps!

J.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:36 am

I think there's a lot of well-meant but overthinking going on here.

If you're looking for a 'point & shoot" recording, you can get by with just about anything, depending on your space and size of the hall. For big places, do as Jeremy suggests; use an ORTF cardioid setup with the mics close enough to the choir, but far enough away to get some of the hall sound. If you have the budget, inputs & time to do it, add some omni outriggers.

For closer, smaller, warmer spaces, you may be able to go with the omni's alone; that would certainly reduce the tendency to get single singers instead of a more desirable blend of everyone.

For a medium sized a capella choir, you shouldn't need any more than two cardioids in the middle and a pair of omni' outriggers, period, unless there's soloists going on as well.

Scheops are wonderful, beautiful mics, so are Geffels. But if you're on a budget, you could take care of both needs with a pair of LD AT 4050's; they have both settings on them; cardioid and omni. (The SD 4049's are pretty nice, too....they're not DPA's, but great in a pinch.) They are gorgeous, detailed mics, perfect for this sort of thing and will give you wonderful results. (In 95% of your concerts, I'm betting the space itself and the performers will account for much more of the sound than the choice of mics.)

As for recorders, there's plenty of reliable, chip based stuff out there to go with 24/44, 88 or even 96k recordings for about $500-1000. If you want to go with better preamps, you could get something in between, but it's going to impact your budget.

The new Korg looks tempting, too...DSD and/or PCM recording in a small package for again, about $500. (not sure on the price, and there's two models, the big brother is more like $1200 or so.)

Seriously, don't overthink this; get some nice mics, Chinese, German or Martian-made. Try them out, and have some fun. As long as you don't get too far away from the choir and lose detail, you should be fine. Even a dry, close recording can be improved in post with a little bit of tasteful reverb.

Good luck with it.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 10:27 am

I agree a lot with Joeh, part of this could be boiled down to the old Nike slogan "Just do it". Just two more thoughts though.

1 - try to borrow or rent equipment before buying. Renting mics can be surprisingly cheap (they last a lifetime so the renters makes a profit anyway). Renting a recorder is more expensive, but do make sure to if at all possible try out before buying -- I really hate some of the boxes out on the market.
2 - you need a program on your PC for post-processing. Unless you have a favourite already, I have no problem recommending Magix Music Studio deLuxe (odd spelling I know) in the budget price class, check the Magix web site. It is a small brother to Samplitude with decent functions and a good sound. From a workflow point of view burning a CD from inside the program saves a lot of time (as compared to eg Protools, where you have to bounce every song in realtime first).

Gunnar

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 10:46 am

Thanks everybody,

Since nobody here has really tried to discourage me from giving it a try, I decided to give it a try. I have now got some offers at various dealers, and seemingly one is willing to let me try things out for about a week before buying. My plan is now to purchase the following:

A sodidstate recorder, Fostex FR 2 LE (approx 600$) and a matched set of omnis from MBHO(I will give a try afterall), of the type mbnm 410 (420 $ a piece). With some 5 m cables, extra compact flash cards, stereobar, etc. that is going to cost my choir approx. 1600 $. All editing I will try to do in audacity, so no software cost for now (that I hope.)

This is maybe not a foolproof plan, but I hope that it will give me the first experiences without me making terrible mistakes from the very start.

cheers everybody and once again thnk you

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:15 am

Good luck and best wishes!

Please let us know how everything turns out - post a sample if you'd like.

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