More important Pro monitors vs Pro room treatment?

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:08 am

Hello to all:

I have been reading these forums for sometime now and have learned a great deal from everyone that posts here, so thank you for sharing all your knowledge.

I am planning to buy new monitors and then treat my room for the best possible acoustics that I can achieve. My room is 11ft square with a 8 foot ceiling, about 1000 cubic feet.

My ulitimate goal is to achieve an excellent mix that can be submitted to a mastering engineer who can then put the finishing adjustments on the recording to bring it to the professional level.

I am very confused on to which monitors would work well in my music room. I was leaning toward the Genelec 8020's with the 7050B Sub-woofer. This would give me a frequency range of 25hz to 20khz, with a mostly flat response with fluctuation of 1-3db's. I could spend more on monitors with frequency errors of only 1-1.5 db's? However, people in this forum say that a really well treated room can only get a frequency response of +/- 10 db's.

So I guess I have several questions that I am trying to answer to achieve my goal of an excellent mixing room:

1. Are the monitors I choose much less important than treating the room?

2. What frequency range should I be trying cover with monitors to achieve an excellent mix?

3. What is the lowest frequency that I should be trying to achieve in my small room?

I am so confused. I have read just about every post on monitors and room treatment that I can find. I have watched Ethan's videos and I have read most of Rod's book. I am getting ready to spend quite a bit of money on my music studio and I want to make sure I get the gear that I need to have a professional sound.

So, any help is much appreciated, thanks.

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:02 am

Dark Mountain,

Welcome to the fray of insanity!

Two things bro...

PLEASE read the sticky at the top of the forum and update your profile to at least include your geographic location... It really does help to get this info to Rod, Steve, and the always helpful other experts and knowledgeable folks who frequent here.

Now regarding your main question...

It doesn't matter beans how much frequency response your monitors have if you can't hear them accurately.

IMHO, there's a real myth that you have to have the monitors from hell to get a good mix. NOT SO!! Good monitors definitely make it easier... but if you can mix on a pair of crappy NS-10's or Auratones... you can mix on anything.

The real secret to ease of getting a good mix... or just plain getting a good mix PERIOD, is to have a room that is as free from sonic problems as you can afford. Getting your room as flat as possible isn't necessarily as difficult as you might think. It might be more money than you would expect, but this should really be anticipated... this isn't a game for the faint of heart.

Fix the room as best you can, THEN buy your monitors.

A square room will cause flutter and nodal issues, but you can at least reduce those problems and minimize their effect.

As far as the frequency response and lowest frequency... don't put the cart before the horse. The reality is that the frequency response is the frequency response. In EVERY room, the sound (et al) energy is what it is... DC (0Hz) to 100kHz to Visible light to X-Ray and beyond. (I know, I know... but bear with me)

You are dealing with audio, so you are primarily wanting the audio you purposely put in the room (monitors) to be as even as possible.... e.g flat.

Small(er) rooms have more nodal issues with an abundance of low frequency. Usually at the frequencies (and harmonics) of the wavelength that correlates to the dimensions of the room.

So how do you fix the room?!?... Start with bass trapping. You need to put something like superchunks in every corner you can... and I mean EVERY corner... wall to wall... wall to ceiling... and possibly even wall to floor. (Although wall to floor trapping is a bit extreme!)

You may also have issues with RF... lighting circuitry, microwave ovens, etc... but more often than not, it's electrical noise from grounding and RF coming in on your power. I'm not saying you WILL have problems... just be aware that you MAY.

Rod's book is excellent!!! Just keep after it. This stuff ain't easy to get a real handle on in a coupla years... much less a couple of months.

Again, it's just one old farts opinion, but get your room straight before going on. It's THE most important part of the equation.

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:56 am

MadMax,

Thanks for your thoughts and I am glad to be a part of the insanity!!!

I was reading the beginnings of your studio build this morning, very interesting, I am glad to see that others are as fanactical as I about getting a professinal studio built. However, you are way ahead of me with much more square footage to work with.

I posted my location as you mentioned I should, I am located in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, it is very beautiful up here and quiet, so I do not have to worry about sound isolation or bothering my neighbors. So all I have to worry about is the room acoustics.

My room is 11 Feet and 5 Inches by 11 Feet and 5 Inches with an 8 foot ceiling, I know Rod's book says to avoid this like the plague, but this is the beast I must deal with.

I would say about 70% of the walls have room for bass traps and I have plenty of corners. I plan on putting real traps in wall to wall corners and ceiling to wall corners. I will get a drawing of my room and figure out how to post it on this site.

Your thoughts have re-inforced some of mine. I am trying to determine how much I need to spend to get a professional mixing studio. It seems to me there is little difference in monitors costing 2K vs monitors that cost 6-7K at least technically speaking. Also, after watching Ethan's videos and seeing that most rooms are off by 15 dbs across the frequency spectrum it seemed to me that it would be more advantageous to spend 4-6K on room treatment and 2-3k on room monitors. However, I am new to this and trying to wade through the science and the reality of what type of gear and what type of studio I need to make professional mixes. I will spend what I need to get there.

I think your answer of "treat the room and then get the monitors", has changed my thinking of how I should proceed. I think I had a mis-understanding that the monitors would influence how I should treat the room.

I have read about the the acoustic software by ETF and plan on getting it. Or is there a better and easier software program I should buy?

I thought I needed the actual monitors I would be mixing with in order for the software to give accurate readings to what frequencies I need to treat?

But what your are saying is that the room testing software gives you the room response regardless of the monitors that are sending the test signal sign waves?

And I should choose monitors with a frequency response that would be a good match for my room acoustics? Which basically would be not to have to much bass that can not be contained?

Sorry, for having nothing but more questions after you gave me so many answers!!! I really appreciate your help.

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:56 pm

Please excuse the "push-y" entrance, but I'd recommend Blue Sky monitors. Fairly inexpensive, but well respected. I think they are the best bang for the buck available (back-up suggestion is Mackie). The spend what you save on monitors for the room treatment.

A good sounding, well tuned room is the most important studio tool to have. Even with the proverbial "cube," there is still some help available.

I've been reading about mix and recording spaces for about 3 years now. I am converting part of a very large garage into my personal studio. And it's almost a cube at 13x14x9h. Should be fine for a one or two person space. Too small for a band though... I'll be sure to post my results when it's completed...

Good luck!

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:56 pm

Darkmountain; you're over-thinking this whole thing about "Speaker response" and specs. Good speakers are good speakers, period. If you're looking for what the pro's use, ask around, read websites, etc. Mastering engineers are a finnicky bunch, and their entire signal chain is good, actually GREAT stuff, from the interface to the amps to the wire to the speakers themselves. Not only that, but every speaker manufacturer will tell you theirs is the best.

As for frequency response, it's the same thing; you want accuracy, not hype, nor hiding things. Yes, you'll want bass, but don't overdo it. I'm of the subwoofer camp, NOT because I want a lot of bass, I just want to hear it all when I'm doing professional mixes and/or masters for clients. (Pretty embarassing to miss some of the low stuff and find out there's footsteps, or busses going by...)

You have to work these choices from all angles, the room, the treatment, and the playback system all have to work harmoniously. I know it's confusing, and the big quesiton is "Where do I start?"

Just keep in mind you'll want your mixes to be transportable to other PB systems, with no surprises, nothing missing or exaggerated. It'll take some time, but eventually you'll find what you want. You'll be doing a lot of listening before your done.

Btw; what part of the White Mountains? Near Franconia Notch? Mt. Washtington? Lincoln?

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:41 am

Man... The mountains... lucky dog!!

First... I'm certainly NOT any kind of expert around here! (e.g. take some of what I say... OK, maybe MOST of what I say with a grain of salt... deal?!?) I'm just a another lunatic trying to build a studio that will allow me to track and mix in a good solid environment.

"how much I need to spend to get a professional mixing studio."... how much money you got?!?!? You can certainly spend as much as you want. And you can easily spend more than you need to as well. The key is to work out your design and then execute it as accurately as you can.

Don't completely get me wrong... your monitors can be the basis for your room design... but that's really from the standpoint of when you are designing your room from scratch.

You already have a room. So, in a room your size, you definitely don't have to have a sofit mounted set of Boxers or a $30k set of Augies. But I think you're correct in wanting to get a good set of monitors.

So what constitutes a good set of monitors? IMHO, they are sized and configured to deliver loudness and frequency response that closely matches the frequency response of your room.

Thus build your room as best you can... not to many peaks/dips, not too dead, etc... THEN look for monitors... actually, you'll probably end up with several pairs of monitors... cheap, good, better and the best you can afford. Many studios have 2-4 pairs of speakers.

I know a lot of guys have a better quality set that they mix on... large-ish nearfields or mid-fields. Then they check the mix on smaller nearfields and on the el-cheapo's. They will then review mixes with clients on their set of wow-factor monitors. Regardless of what anyone tells you about high end monitors, you need to check them out for yourself before you buy them. Most reputable distributors will let you return the monitors if you don't like them in your environment. (Notice that key phrase?!?!?... in YOUR environment!)

Oh yeah... posting images... Big Tree doesn't have the space to allow us to put images up. You'll need to host the images, then point links to the images on your server.

Looking forward to reading and seeing your studio's progress!!

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:05 pm

Thanks for all the information and thoughts!!

Tifftunes,

I checked out the Blue Sky monitors, they look very nice and are reasonably priced. They seem to be trying to move along with the current idea that having a seperate sub-woofer is the best way to reproduce the lows more accurately. I also noticed that they used sealed boxes without porting, they believe this is a superior approach. I know the Barefoot monitors are sealed also and supposedly this allows better response and accuracy. As I said though I am new to this and still trying to wade through the science and the reality of what gear is of a professional level and will give professional results, without buying into all the marketing and hype.

JoeH,

You are right I am probably way over thinking my choice of monitors. I was orignally set on the Genelec monitors, but after reading through posts on Gearslutz, Prosoundweb and on this forum, I started to second guess my decision. A lot of comments about the Genelecs were that they were not accurate and did not translate well to other systems. The most poplar monitors currently seem to be the Adam S3A's and the Barefoot MM27. These monitors cost 3X that of the Genelec monitors that I was looking at, but if they really give a more accurate sound and make it easier to get a professional mix, then I will consider them.

I know I should go and audtion and compare the monitors, but one well respected engineer said this is difficult to do. He felt the only way to test a monitor was to live with it for a while in your own mixing environment and then test it on other systems and make sure it translates well. This may be the route I go, since you can often demo speakers for a couple of weeks. However, I am new to this and would have more trouble than an experienced engineer at comparing the monitors.

I was wondering if you could tell me a little about the monitors you currently prefer and how flat your mixing room is? I know you do this professionally, so your thoughts would be very valuable!

Btw: I do live close to Franconia Notch, I have climbed and hiked over the nothches many times, it is an amazing hike with incredible views!

MadMax:

I would love to have a set of $30K Augies. I believe I will someday, but that will be when I build a studio from scratch, maybe 5 years down the road. Like I said earlier, you are way ahead of me with a beautiful spot for your studio and plenty of square footage.

I think you are right that having several monitors to do a quick reference is a good idea. I know a lot of people will have $10 dollar computer speakers to reference on, because a lot of people listen to music on crappy computer speakers, so it makes sense to me also.

I am getting some server space here soon, so I will post some pics and let you know know what monitors I finally choose!!! Thanks for your help.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:11 am

Hey Dark; that all sounds positive. (Franconi Notch is one of my all-time favorite places in the world.....the 3 mile stretch of park there is just wonderful. Sorry the "Old Man" fell a while back, but I guess it was inevitable. We vacationed there as kids, and i've been back there many times since. A trip up Mt. Washington on the cog railway is also a MUST each time, as well.)

I tend to avoid quoting my own reviews (in Mix magazine), but I've reveiwed a fair amount of speakers, including the Blue Sky Sat 12 system, the Adam P33A's, the Lipinski L-505's, the Focal SM8s, and smaller systems like the Gallo Acoustics the A'Diva Ti loudspeaker (with companion TR-2 subwoofer) and a review coming out next month the K&H O110D's. (Small but powerful nearfields.) If you go to MIX and do a search on my name, you can read any of the reviews. I don't want to put any further "personal" thoughts on these on a public forum, but my favorite was - and still is - the Lipinski's, with the Blue Sky a close second. I can tell you more privately, or you may be able to get enough info from the reviews.

I'm in a similar position as you (I'm building a new room, but it's from scratch). In my case, however, I know what speakers I prefer, and what I will use when the room is built, so I admit I'm thinking along those lines.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:42 pm

chicken.... non=no wait....egg? waita minute,,,,yea egg...

it's 2 mints 2 mints 2mints in 1...
gotta do em both ideally....

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:20 am

Dark, your square room is gonna take some work to even get CLOSE to a "mastering" quality room, in fact I'm afraid to even suggest that it's possible - but here's what I would do to TRY and accomplish the task -

1 - go here http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

and download room EQ Wizard - it's free once you register, and does most of what ETF does from what I've seen ( I have ETF but have NOT used the wizard) -

Follow all directions for use (you may need to buy either an omni mic or the Radio shack SPL meter first) and unless you have at least one speaker with at least a 6" or larger woofer, you'll need one of those also.

Make all your room tests at first with one speaker placed in any lower tri-corner of the room, with your measurement mic in the exact opposite, ceiling tri-corner of the room - this way you should see ALL of the peaks/dips in response.

These will be at roughly 50, 100, 150 and 200 hZ (they'll go further up in frequency but these are the ones to be concerned with)- you'll also see peaks/dips at 70, 140 and 212 hZ - these are from your ceiling height.

Don't have a heart attack if these peaks/dips show more than 20 dB difference - I'll be surprised if it's not even MORE drastic.

Now, here's hoping you're an avid DIY person - you're gonna need to build some resonant panel traps and they have to go in specific places - I'm hoping (for both our sakes) that you'll be able to tame those "square room blues" enough so that broadband absorbers in all the NORMAL places can make your room less than totally UGLY - I know it'll help, but until you try we won't know HOW much it'll fix.

First thing though, is to get a "baseline" graph of your room so we know what we've fixed - that's where repeatability comes in - you'll need to place your speaker and mic EXACTLY the same place for each measurement (blue masking tape is priceless for this)

If I've already got you scared off, sorry - let us know what you have in the way of tools, and how comfortable you are with making sawdust. We may not be able to "make a silk purse" out of your "sow's ear", but we should be able to get some decent tasting sausage by the time we're done... Steve

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:03 pm

Thanks for thoughts and information.

JoeH:

Yeah, I agree Franconia park is beautiful, the whole White Mountain Range is so incredible, I am surrounded by mountains and national forest, great hiking, MTB and snowshoeing. If you ever get up this way again give me shout, I know plenty of hikes off the beaten path that are pretty amazing. The poor "Old Man of the Mountain", they are talking about putting up some type of fascimilie, so it looks like the old rock formation. They could just bring up some cans of great stuff and grey spray paint, with a few hours of foam sculpting and spray painting, he would be good as new!!! I think it would make for a great Halloween prank, imagine everyone driving through the Notch the next morning and seeing the Old Man back in his spot!! I think people would be driving off the road in dis-belief.

I found some of the articles and read up on the Lipinski monitors and the Blue Sky monitors. The Lipinskis are very nice looking speakers, certainly something to consider, if I wanted to go the passive route with speakers. Bob Katz liked the Lipinski's as much as you did. He now uses them as his main monitor, that is certainly passing a gold standard. If I were a betting man I would say you are going to put the Lipinski's in your new studio.

I also checked out the Blue Sky monitors again and study them more in depth. If I went that route I would go with the Pro Desk 2.1 Series, I believe the Sat 2.1 system is to large for my room, they say you need a 10.5 foot throw for the bass to reproduce right in a room. So those are all considerations. I also am still considering the Genelecs, they have great specs. I was also reading some new reviews about the Mackie HR824mk2. They have certainly improved upon a solid model, they have an excellent dynamic range 37Hz-20Khz with +/- 1.5 db's.

Knightfly,

Thanks for the links. I've downloaded RoomEQ and the demo version of ETF. So I am getting ready to do some room testing. I already used the room calculator and I will be dealing with axial room modes starting at 50Hz and in multiples of 50 all the way up to 500hz, with multiple modes at 100, 200, 300 and 400. So says the graph if I am interpreting it right. I also printed off a copy of the demo room handbook, so I will be working my way through that program with my current monitors, Event TR5's, (no laughing, I had to start somewhere with monitors).

As I get an idea of how these monitors react to my room, I am hoping it will give insight into a proper pair of monitors for my room. I would like to obviously get a little more bottom end than what my current monitors can put out, but be able to put up enough bass traps to deal with those lower frequencies. The funny part is that the room calculator did not show any modes below 50hz, but I think I still have to worry about ringing? Anyways, I learn by doing so I will work my way through the software and see if I come to any grand conclusions as to what monitors and room treatments will best facilitate a good mixing room.

I will say that I am not planning on Mastering, just mixing. I want to be able to get a good mix, so that the mastering engineer does not have to do drastic sonic changes to my mix to get it to a professional level, hopefully just a little smoothing and a few more db's.

The hard part to understand for me is the frequency range I have to cover to get a good mix. Specifically the bottom end. Do I need a monitoring sytem that goes as low as 30hz to optimally mix the bass and kick drum or is 50hz enough to get close. What type of frequency range would a mastering engineer recommend a mixer have in order to facilitate a good mix, that is relatively easy to master?

So my real goal is a good mixing room. What I have concluded so far with everyone's help is:

1. The room is more important than the monitors.

2. There are many good quality monitors at decent prices and only
marginal differences at higher prices, (required for mastering).

3. One must learn their monitor and room to get consistent professional
mixes.

4. There is only so much you can do with a small square room, bass trap
until your room looks like the bat cave and don't get monitors that
can not be controlled in your room.

Thanks for everyones ideas, if you think my conclusions are way off, let me know. I will be glad when my room and gear set-up is complete, then I will be able to write and create music, my true passion. I did not know when I got into recording music that I was gonna have to be an acoustical/electrical/computer engineer! I will keep you posted on my room testing and monitor choice.

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:14 am

Only thing I'd modify with that last post is choice of speakers - with that small a woofer, it may not show lower modes as strong as they really are - and one advantage of having speakers reach lower than 50-60 hZ is NOT having nasty surprises in the final mix that your speakers didn't show you - as in, thumps from handling noise, etc, that smaller speakers won't show you.

Also, you're right - lowest mode for your length/width is around 49 hZ... Steve

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:53 am

Sounds like you're making progress indeed, DarkMountain. (And your bet would be a wise one, indeed.)

I really like the Blue Sky monitors as well, even though I've never been a fan of anything self powered. Call me old fashioned, but I've always felt - as does Mr. Lipinski - that sticking an amp inside a speaker box compromises the sound. I don't mind running a few feet of good heavy speaker wire from an amp to each box. (If I had the space, I"d still consider the Blue Sky Sat 12 system as a second option. It's really one serious combo with the sub.)

And speaking of subs and bass, IMHO, you can never have enough, even in the 20-40hz range. That's NOT to say you'll want to knock the walls down with shuddering bass or have folks over in Crawford Notch <g> calling to complain, but you still need to know what's going on down there; all the way down.

The key is setting it up properly so that it's not giving you a false impression as to what you're hearing. Too much bass (as fun as it might seem at first) will have you making thin and wimpy mixes overall; they won't transport well to other playback systems. Not enough bass, and you may end up over compensating with bass-heavy mixes. Getting the sub woofer settings right is as important as any other component in your monitoring chain.

I do as much mixing as I do mastering, and I can tell you it's important for both sides of the equation. When I first got my sub, installed it and tuned it, I was surprised at so many things in professional/commercial CD mastered recordings that were missed. It's slowly getting better, but even so, every now and then I"ll hear a major release (or re-release) that's got a footfall, or passing bus or mic-plosive that SOMEONE should have caught before it went out the door.

If you're looking to put together the best mixes you can in a pre-mastering situation, there's no time like the present to make sure your bass management is in order. Why leave out the fundamental part of the mix? It can sometimes even cost you level and headroom, and create wierd situations where there's something (low bass) robbing you of needed levels.

You'll also have much more confidence in your mixes; you'll hear the mud easier, and you may find yourself getting in the habit of rolling off bass on sources where it's not needed (Female vocals, strings, certain guitar parts, etc.) and you may even find there's more room to work on the instruments that really need the space to breathe: Kick drum, basses, pipe organs, moosecalls, what have you.

Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:23 am

1. Are the monitors I choose much less important than treating the room?

Yes and no. Problem is even if your monitors are the top of the world in a bad room you won't be able to really benefit from them.

2. What frequency range should I be trying cover with monitors to achieve an excellent mix?

I don't think it is a question of frequency range. It depends a lot on yourself. Lots of pro studios use just regular 6.5 and 8 inches monitors. For a small space I would recommend 6.5 inches monitor (for instance Tannoy Reveal).

3. What is the lowest frequency that I should be trying to achieve in my small room?

You should try to create an harmony between your speakers and your room. The problem is that low frequencies are hard to treat so you also have to dealt with the type of speaker used and location of the speakers and listeners (this is what I do for my clients that have small spaces like yours)

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:52 pm

My short thoughts...

What they said about the room. Especially square- get as much low end trapping in there as you possibly can, and kill the first reflections while leaving some reflective wall in there that's *not* going to give you first reflections.

As far as monitors go, nobody, and I mean nobody, else can be anything more than *very* slightly helpful with you finding monitors you like. I mix well on monitors that a (very good mixer) buddy of mine can't stand, and I can't stand his preferred monitors.

I hate Genelecs. Others love them.

I would recommend you get your feet wet first, by taking your favorite CD to as many stores and studios as possible, listening to a couple songs on each pair of monitors, and write down your impressions. Make sure any unpowered monitors you listen to are attached to a reasonable amp.

Narrow it down to two or three, and convince your favorite pro shop to let you demo them in your room. Pick the one you think shows you the most about your chosen mixes, and do a mix on each to see how they translate. Keep an ear towards monitors you can listen to for a long time without your head exploding.

I'd also recommend you keep this first round of listening to a reasonable budget. You can absolutely find a set of monitors you can be successful on for around a grand, or much less, and I can virtually guarantee you're going to be shopping for montors in the next year or two again. Rinse and repeat a couple times and you'll probably land with something you'll keep. So get something serviceable you're happy with, and learn your room and your style before you go looking for the gold standard.

If you want some suggestions, personaly I would look at:

(used or new)
Tannoy coaxes
Dynaudio BM6A's, or BM6's
Quested H108's or the bigger 2 way 8"
Earthworks
Blue Sky
Mackie HR824's
Smaller ATC's
Smaller PMC's
ADAMs (although I'd rather have them in my living room than mix on them)
I liked the Hafler TRM8's, should be cheap cause the company's gone.
I love my $300 NHT Super Ones

As far as amps, it's hard to beat a used Hafler P3000 or P4000, IMO, and you can ebay them all day for $200-300.