HS Band recording workflow and direct to CD??

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:46 pm

No good deed goes unpunished.

I recorded the local HS band's winter concert and donated CDs for the performers. (It's my daughter's senior year.) So the director liked the CD a lot and asked my daughter if I would be willing to record the district band festival in March. This would be several dozen bands doing three pieces each. It takes place over three days. It's not really a competition, but it is a judged performance.

I've never done anything on this scale before, and I'd be inclined to say no if it weren't for the fact that I feel that my recordings are better than the local people that have been hired in the past. (And VT is on spring break so if I kick butt on my book over the next month I can take the time. And I could buy a new pre with the proceeds.)

Anyway, the biggest technical hurdle is that the expectation is that the band director for each band is to be given a CD or cassette tape the same day as the performance - I guess in under an hour. They basically have been getting a quick and dirty mix - I assume all recorded as a single CD-track, i.e. without any song breaks. Not the way I'd like to do it but... Since it is basically like mixing live sound, I'm comfortable with the direct-to-two-track aspect, but I'm concerned with work flow, equipment, backup, and similar issues.

Has anyone done something like this? Any pointers or suggestions? I've got some ideas on how to do this with my existing equipment, but I'd like to hear how someone does it "right" before I say yes or no.

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:43 pm

I've done this the past several years with the local district chorus.

It's a *fun* thing to sit there for 10-12 hours a day working and working and listening over and over. However, I agree, it's better to do it than to have the local hacks take a whack at it.

For the sessions that I've done, here's how my workflow has been-

Work entirely at 16 bit / 44.1.

I'll record directly into 2 tracks in Sequoia.

Each school gets their own file and since it's always set up like-

Group A (3 songs)
Group B (3 Songs)
Group A (3 Songs)
etc.

(likely different for band - most schools have many choirs...male choir, female choir, select choir, etc. For band, it's probably 2 at most...concert band/wind ensemble or whatever they use for terminology)

But usually, you won't have a school with both ensembles back to back, there's almost always a break between them.

In this case, what I've done is again set up a file for each school and when that school gets up to sing, I drop the cursor at the next point in the DAW and hit record.

Since there's always a few minutes to tear down and set up from one school to the next, this gives me time to do a basic trim of silence between tracks and assign track numbers. When the school's ensembles have completely finished, I quickly burn to CD (which I've preprinted with their school names for a personal touch).

The burn takes maybe 2 minutes but there's usually a good 3 to 5 between schools.

This is seeming pretty confusing so far, if you need clarification on any points, jump right in.

Also, I know that Sequoia is kind of unique in being able to assign track markers and burn from within the program (which makes this process tons easier!) Is it possible for you to get the cheap version of Samplitude? This should have the same feature.

Anyway - the trick is efficient file management. Create all of the files before you get there. Get a schedule of the daily activities and make sure you find out what changes will occur (there will be changes- I promise!) Make sure the school kids that are acting as "runners" know your process and how quickly they'll need to come back and pick up CDs.

I always run a back up on these events but fortunately (knock on wood) I've never had to use one.

One antecdote I can share -
I've done this for 3 years now and will be doing my 4th one this year. Every single year without fail, some kid has puked either on-stage (the first year it was twice, in the same spot 2 hours apart and both under one of my mics!!) or comes running back stage and pukes in the trashcan behind my mix position.

I don't know if it's flu season at that time of the year or if the kids just get nervous. I don't ever recall anyone puking when I was in school doing this stuff.

Anyway - sorry if I'm rambling...I just got home from a 4 hour rehearsal for Tchaik 5...

Cheers-
J.

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:51 am

Jeremy - Great info.

Quote:

I know that Sequoia is kind of unique in being able to assign track markers and burn from within the program...

Vegas does this as well.

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:04 am

bent wrote:

Jeremy - Great info.

Quote:

I know that Sequoia is kind of unique in being able to assign track markers and burn from within the program...

Vegas does this as well.

As does Wavelab.

For most live concerts, we give CD's to the artists straight after the performance, but we do this by running a digitally fed CD recorder in real time. The signal the CD recorder gets fed with is slightly compressed, EQ'd, soft limited (in case we get the gain wrong, never happens!) and dithered all from within the TC Gold Channel, we use for just this purpose.

The final CD tracks are not nicely faded in and out, but they are marked accurately for index points. The sound quality is excellent, and the compression is required because usually the artist judges your work by going straight outside and playing the disc in the car.
Smile

There is usually no time to be topping and tailing and then post burning the CD, the artists, agents, are usually at the reception or on their way to the airport. For some school bands we have done this for there is time, but we are usually too busy setting up the next act to be worrying about post production.

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:25 am

For my son's high school band competition, the recording is set-up with a separate mic/channel for the adjudicator. She/he can provide a running commentary about the performance. The bands are recorded in stereo. They are given two versions of their performance - one with commentary and one without.

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:07 pm

I do a number of these events each spring. I don't know about your part of the country, but in Texas, the directors from the large schools take these events very seriously. The recordings from these events are used as auditions for honor band and choir, other festivals, etc. As Jeremy mentioned, you should make sure your backup plan is foolproof. I only buy Taiyo-Yuden CDRs, and even then, I get bad disks now and then. I record direct to CDR, and to DVD for archive, and to hard disk for emergency. That way, when I get a clinker disk, I can do a quick burn from my laptop. (I use Adobe Audition.)

Good luck!

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:49 pm

Thank you all for the replies. I'll post later on today to with some reactions and questions, but first I have to say this....

Jeremy you jinxed us!!!

I just got back from the Virginia Tech Honor Band where my daughter played bari sax. Of course, in the first band (middle schoolers) someone pukes on stage. Lots of fun cleaning up between bands. The student wielding the mop was a VT Math/Music major that was in my advanced calc class last year. They relayed his comment - "Four years of college and this is how I end up" - to the audience.

I'll post on topic after I've had a drink.

UPDATE: Further posts will have to wait until after the game - or maybe tomorrow. I made the mistake of inventing the Hokie Negronie

1 oz. gin
1 oz. sweet vermouth
1 oz. Campari
(at this point the drink is maroon)
1/4 oz. orange bitters (this is for Stirlings Blood Orange - others may take less)
Serve with a twist of orange on the rocks.

It's sweeter than I'd really like it. If I could get a more bitter bitters (maybe from the department of redundancy department) I could reduce the Campari or maybe a less sweet red vermouth. By the time I get this right I may not be able to post for a week.

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:59 am

Again, many thanks for the replies.

What I had done in the past in recording the HS concerts is record to my HD24; take it home and edit and mix in Pro Tools LE (I have the 002 rack); burn with Nero.

The workflow Jeremy describes (and which others are doing with variations of software and equipment) is the way I'd like to do it. But I can't do it that way with existing equipment. I'm reluctant to buy gear just for this purpose. The PT/Digi002 set up is serving my needs in the studio. If it were gone tomorrow in a disaster, I'd get something different. But I can't justify the cost of upgrading at this time. With that said, the $300 version of Sequoia would give me a better tool for finalizing and burning my studio mixes, so I can see buying that. But that leaves the problem of an interface. I would only want to buy something that genuinely improves my existing equipment. Is there a good converter that would interface directly with the computer but could also go into the digi via lightpipe or spdif?

If something like that does not pan out, I was thinking about doing it close to the way that David describes. I'd send out an eq'd, soft limited stereo mix directly to a cd recorder while recording the tracks directly to PT. (I'd use 4 tracks - ortf as a center pair flanked by omnis.) The PT recording would act as my backup and as the source of a better mix for those who wanted it.

I think this is the type of product they have been getting in the past. In fact, I think that a few years ago they were getting something recorded directly on cassette tapes. The adjudicators still use hand-held cassette recorders for their comments. I have the advantages of having recorded four concerts in the room and not being stone cold deaf (unlike some of the people who record around here).

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:10 am

I've been using the Konnect 24 in my home studio rig for the past few weeks. It has 4 lin inputs and ADAT outputs. You can route these inputs to the ADAT outputs and use the unit as a standalone 4 channel AD converter (or at least you can in principle. I've yet to try this or do it...)

In any case, I've been adequately impressed by the unit. The mix interface is a bit quirky (IMO) but serves its purpose well. The mic pres are fine up to a point (don't do ribbons or dynamics, you won't be happy).

Have you considered selling the 002 and getting something else? That would mean "goodbye ProTools" (which would suck if you have a lot of mixes you haven't archived as raw wave files) but it might give you the money to replace it with something that will do what you're looking for.

Cheers-
J.

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:37 am

BobRogers wrote:

Is there a good converter that would interface directly with the computer but could also go into the digi via lightpipe or spdif?

Bob, I've been looking at the Mackie 1200F for this sort of function. It's got all the right specs, but does not seem to be freely available yet in the UK, so I haven't managed to get my hands on one.

There are plenty of S/PDIF-only boxes, but don't forget S/PDIF is only 2-channel.

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:37 am

Buying the Mackie 1200F and selling my Focurite Octopre would probably be a good idea. I've had some buyers remorse about the octo vs. the mackie onyx series since shortly after I bought it, but I've been avoiding the idea of chasing the best pres in this general price range. But since the 1200f would double as a standalone interface that would be a big advantage that might be worth the hit I'd take selling the octo.

I can't see selling the Digi002R. It won't bring in enough money to make worth giving up PT cold turkey for a piece of software that I've never used. As I say, this is the first time that I've found PT to be a major drawback, and I don't see this situation as being something that I'm going to encounter a lot. The other areas where PT is weak - like mastering and midi - aren't places I am going to go at this time. I'm not wedded to PT. I just don't see a reason to give it up until I'm ready to invest in substantially better conversion and pres. My plan has been to do this gradually while using the Digi002R. At some point I would expect that the 002R will either become obsolete or a bottleneck for better equipment and at that point I plan to move to different software while perhaps keeping the 002R as legacy equipment. I don't see a reason to do that as yet - but I'm definitely considering the getting 1200f and and the $300 version of Samplitude. The 1200f doesn't seem available yet (Sweetwater says "the week of 2/10), and I probably ought to research the various versions of Samplitude.)

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:19 pm

The 1200F just might be your bridge to a new world without PT. You could use it for your current work going ADAT into the 002R with PT (at least, you could get 8 channels in that way), all the while dreaming up projects you could do using the FireWire interface and Samplitude.

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:58 pm

Boswell wrote:

The 1200F just might be your bridge to a new world without PT. You could use it for your current work going ADAT into the 002R with PT (at least, you could get 8 channels in that way), all the while dreaming up projects you could do using the FireWire interface and Samplitude.

That has definitely occurred to me. If I went with Samplitude I'd go with the straight V10 version ($500) rather than the master ($300) or professional ($1,000). The master version restricts you to two tracks (though it does throw in the "repair" software). I don't see myself using the high track counts, etc. provided in the professional version. I guess I should do some research on vegas, audition, wavelabs, et. al. Anybody have a link to a good discussion of this? It gets discussed a lot around here, but...the quality of the discussion varies.

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:49 am

Just thought I'd post a follow up. Two things cased the project to crash and burn. My mother was scheduled for cataract surgery on the first day of the festival, and I found out their budget for recording was $250. Since that works out to almost $10 an hour, I guess that's not ridiculous for someone who is just running a cassette deck and a couple of mics. Anyway, I'm going to go to the hospital with mom, and I'll lend my daughter a pair of mics and an FMR RNP/RNC preamp/compressor combo. The kids from the high school can run the cassette deck of CD recorder or whatever they decided to use. I emailed the district coordinator and explained the difference in the products and encouraged him to consider budgeting more for better recordings in the future.

BTW: This puts the swap of the Octopre for the Mackie and the adoption of new DAW software on the back burner for a while. Probably a good thing to let the 1200f get shaken out on the market to see if there are any bugs. If I had to make a quick decision on software, I would go with Samplitude, but I probably should look at all the options more carefully before making that decision.

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:21 am

A bit off topic but...

We do a couple of choir festivals a year. We charge a very minimal rate for recording them both audio and video. The groups are always complaining that they don't have any money and want us to drop our rates or in one case "do it for the good of the group" and one group even asked us if we could somehow only bill them for the CDs and DVDs and not for the actual recording. *

At the same time this is happening I cannot overlook the fact that they are spending a lot of money on "other things" In one festival they went from a nicely printed black and white program printed on regular copy paper to a 4 color program printed on glossy paper and went from two pages to 14 with lots color photographs and lots of ads. In another case they went from the silk screened one color sweat shirts for all the participants to an embroidered golf tee shirt with the person's name on the front and a big logo on the back. They also have more and more people involved in the festivals and concerts and I have noticed recently that they have a fancy catered lunch for all the "volunteers" at the festival. They also hire a professional photographer to do the "group picture" and he is never on time and makes us take down all of our microphone stands BEFORE he will take the group's picture which sometimes means a scramble to get everything set back up before the doors open.

I guess it is a matter of priorities

If you have the money to put out a fancy program and give everyone an embroidered personalized shirt then why is it that you don't have money to spend on the recording of the concert? The recording is something that will last for a lifetime and will survive long after the glossy program or tee shirts have hit the recycle bin.

*there is a company located in Ohio that does just that - they do not bill for the concert recording but instead insist that you buy 75 CDs for $16.00 each. This is about 3 times what we bill for the recordings of the concerts.

FWIW and MTCW

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