Controling Vocal bleeding

[SythAngel]

Cucco - Are you hoping that you pick up each singer discretely enough that you can manipulate each channel independently (for things such as pitch correction, etc.)? Yes.
The individual effects you're trying to put on each track, are they individual compression, or are you talking pitch correction? - Just for pitch correction purposes.

Let me be 100% honest - I know we need to be "good enough" to just do it live but there are a few issues we face. Basically we all met in college but we all live in different states now. The Lead and Tenor live about 1 hour from each other but the rest of us are 10-15 hours apart... SO, we basically NEVER get to see each other or rehearse. So, we get together for a week, spend a day or two singing and making small tweaks to music then spend 3-4 days in the studio... ALL DAY! So, to get 14-18 songs done in that time, we dont have the luxury of making sure everything is perfect. We would LOVE to practice for a few weeks, then go in and Nail it in a few takes... and, given that time, we easily could, we're all good enough... but dont ever sing together to make that happen.

Our first CD, self-titled NarrowWay, sold about 2500 hard copies, not including dl's. This next CD, RISE, scheduled to release next month I think will be MUCH better and should do better than that.

About the mix not working so well, pvt message me your e-mail and ill send you some raw material and then the edited and I'd like to hear your opinion of my work... (NEWBIE!)

Check us out as Narrow Way - NarrowWayMusic.com

[BobRogers]

I don't know about other pitch control programs, but I believe that if you use some of the methods mentioned above, you can get enough isolation to use Melodyne to correct pitch. How close are the lead and tenor to the studio? Can they go an make some test recordings to see if they can be successfully manipulated? How big is the studio? If you have enough space (8-10' is plenty) I'm sure that singing close to cardioid dynamic mics will give enough isolation. I've done it with full band with drums.

[SythAngel]

I certainly use Melodyne for pitch correction - GREAT program!!!

[BobRogers]

If you are using Melodyne I think you can pull this off. Use the techniques mentioned above to try to minimize bleed: Keep the singers as far apart as you can while getting good eye contact and interaction. Use cardiod or hypercardioid mics. Dynamics are better for isolation than condensers. Have the singers get very close to the mics.

Once you have your tracks, plan on spending a lot of time with Melodyne. Experiment a lot with note detection. You don't want the accompanying vocals to be identified as harmonics of the main vocal on the track. Try polyphonic vs. melodic mode. Play with sensitivity. The "Demixing and Remixing a Vocal Clip" video tutorial on the Celemony site talks about isolating a vocal in a polyphonic track.

[SythAngel]

Yea, I definitely want to get more familiar with that program, still figuring out all the great things it does.

[thatjeffguy]

I have found that even minimal amounts of bleed make pitch-correcting a vocal nearly impossible. The main vocal track gets pitch-corrected while the bleed track does not. The dissonance between the two is usually evident to the ear even if the bleed is really low. Your mileage may vary, but I have stopped relying on pitch-correction in these cases.

Jeff

[BobRogers]

I have found that even minimal amounts of bleed make pitch-correcting a vocal nearly impossible. The main vocal track gets pitch-corrected while the bleed track does not. The dissonance between the two is usually evident to the ear even if the bleed is really low. Your mileage may vary, but I have stopped relying on pitch-correction in these cases.

I thought that too, but for a particular project I was forced to work a bit harder on this in Melodyne and found ways to deal with the problem. In my case it was not that the bleed went uncorrected. It was that the bleed was misinterpreted as harmonics of the "main" note. In general, if Melodyne misidentifies something (most common is to get the wrong octave) the correction has unwanted artifacts. It is important to look for misidentifications before correcting. On an isolated vocal track this involves finding bad octave ID and bad not separations. In a track with bleed it means identifying "mixed" notes. As you say YMMV.

[thatjeffguy]

So Bob, are you saying that you were able to isolate just the 'bleed' portion of the audio in a track where it was not the targeted audio? I have and use Melodyne, it seems to me that the identification adjustments eliminate the faintest harmonics first... how exactly are you able to retain the faint bleed signal while eliminating the stronger, intended signal?

Jeff

[BobRogers]

I corrected the main notes, not the bleed. If you want to identify just the bleed - in note identification mode increase the sensitivity. You can turn identified notes into "potential notes" and potential notes into identified notes by clicking on the individual blobs. You can prevent ranges of notes from being identified with the venitian blind tool. The "Demixing and Remixing a Vocal Clip" video tutorial on the Celemony site has more tips.

Yes, doing what you want is indeed tedious, but its possible. ( I'm not sure why you want just the bleed rather than just the main vocal.) I admit this can't be done all the time. I've given up on some vocal/acoustic guitar tracks with too much bleed. But I've definitely done this with multiple vocalists.

[thatjeffguy]

Thanks Bob, I think I failed to communicate my meaning in my previous post. I have no problem going in and pitch-correcting the intended vocal on its intended track. What I'm saying is that by so doing, you put the tuned vocal out-of consonance with the bleed of the same vocal in the bleed track, and this dissonance is usually painfully audible even in minimal bleed situations. I thought you were saying that you could then go into the 'bleed' track and also pitch correct that in order to solve the problem. That's what prompted my question to you. I can only assume that you were dealing with a situation where the bleed was very minimal relative to the intended vocal or I'm sure you would have experienced what I describe.

Jeff