Signal chain problems

[Nutti]

Okej so now I'm in the studio and I got 2 guitars recorded at a total of 4 channels, 2 panned left 2 panned right...
this is how I routed the hardware:
Guitar 1 R Hercules ch3 out -> patchbay ch1 -> ch1 line in on mixer -> direct out -> patchbay ch1 -> Hercules ch1 in.
Guitar 1 L Hercules ch4 out -> patchbay ch2 -> ch2 line in on mixer -> direct out -> patchbay ch2 -> Hercules ch2 in.
Guitar 2 L Hercules ch5 out -> patchbay ch3 -> ch3 line in on mixer -> direct out -> patchbay ch3 -> Hercules ch3 in.
Guitar 2 R Hercules ch6 out -> patchbay ch4 -> ch4 line in on mixer -> direct out -> patchbay ch4 -> Hercules ch4 in.
Virtualizer ch1 in -> FX 1 send on mixer -> FX 1 return -> Virtualizer ch1 output.
Virtualizer ch2 in -> FX 2 send on mixer -> FX 2 return -> Virtualizer ch2 output.
This is how I set the software:
Raw Guitar 1 R Hercules ch1 out.
Raw Guitar 1 L Hercules ch2 out.
Raw Guitar 2 L Hercules ch3 out.
Raw Guitar 1 R Hercules ch4 out.
New Guitar 1 C Hercules ch1 in.
New Guitar 2 C Hercules ch2 in.
New Guitar 3 C Hercules ch3 in.
New Guitar 4 C Hercules ch4 in.

The first thing that was positive was that it was coming sound from my speakers! Well thats a great start! Then I could eq on my mixer, witch I liked even better! But then to the reverb...I turned the fx send knob to 0db, the fx return fader to 0db and the fx knob on guitar ch1 to 0db. That should do it right? I'm getting great signal when monitoring guitar ch1 and when monitoring fx signal but still no reverb? What's wrong?
Another thing I noticed was that the channels coming to the mixer are all centered, not panned like the original signal were. They seem to be mono, and no matter how I try to turn the pan knob, nothing happens... Howcome? Is it because I used unbalanced cables in the signalpath between patchbay and mixer?

Thanks for any help!
Fredrik

[drumrob]

Nutti,

I believe the issue is one that no one has yet picked up on in the thread. You mention that you are routing the Direct Outs of channels from your mixer to your interface. Therein lies the issue. The Direct Outs are exactly that. They are the signal After the Mic Pre, but before any other processing on the mixer. So no reverb, no EQ ,etc. They also are not panned as they are just a mono signal, thus why you are not getting panning in your computer software. You need to set the panning for the output of the channels in the software. To get reverb, EQ, etc. on the channels you are sending, you are going to have to route the Main Stereo Outs (or whatever B***hringer calls them) or Sub Groups (if this mixer has them) out. That, of course, means that all channels routed to the Stereo Outs will also already be mixed together. The most you could do would be to do two channels at a time, panning one to the Left and the other to the Right.

Hope this helps. Have fun!

[Nutti]

well...okej, but I disagree. I can run eq trough the direct out! That is, I can eq every single channel and still get the eq:ed signal individually into Cubase.

My problem is with the effect processor. I did get it trough main out, but that is hardly the way pros do it? Or mayby I'm just a fool stuck between the analog and digital world...perhaps that is just the way pros do it. But I can't do that, or I can't efford to do that. I'm testing on a song with 24tracks already and the vocals have yet touched the mic. That means I would need to get a 48 track board with a 48 track interface...well, thats out of my league.

I'm hoping it would be possible to get fx trough the mixers direct out for each channel seperatly back into the computer.

My question is: Is this possible to do?

[Boswell]

Work backwards from what you want to achieve.

The raw mono signals into Cubase from the mixer's direct outs will start out as centred and should be panned in the ITB mix to where you want them to end up.

If you are generating a genuine stereo reverb with your Virtualizer (as opposed to using the two channels to create two separate mono reverbs), you should pan the two inputs from the Virtualizer hard L and R in Cubase. That leaves the question of whether you can run the Virtualizer as stereo in -> stereo out or just mono in -> stereo out. I was assuming that the full stereo mode was your preferred method when I suggested feeding it during recording from the mixer's stereo outputs with a mixed and panned stereo drum stem (sub-mix).

When it comes to using the Virtualizer on the recorded guitar tracks, there are two things I would try differently from what you described. Firstly, I would not use the mixer in the signal chain; take the outputs from the interface directly to the Virtualizer and the outputs of the Virtualizer back to interface inputs. Secondly, I would process the two guitars separately, and maybe even each of the two recordings of of each guitar separately. The first case would mean using the Virtualizer in stereo in -> stereo out mode, and the second case using it in mono in -> stereo out mode, resulting in either two or four stereo reverb tracks being recorded. You would then have a large choice of effected tracks to work on in your mix.

[Nutti]

Alright thanks, I'll try this tomorrow...it's 0:35 am here now. Atleast I can mix in the mixer now, that's a great success! hopefully I'll get the fx going straight into cubase tomorrow then but I still dont understand how I control the amount of reverb if I route the virtualizer straight into cubase?

I must say I'm learning alot from you guys! It's alot easier when to communicate with people that know the subject when you have a question rather than spending hours and hours searching answers in books and surfing the net! I appreciate all your effort!

[Nutti]

so I've been testing...routed like this:
interface ch3 out -> virtualizer ch1 in -> interface ch3 in
interface ch4 out -> virtualizer ch2 in -> interface ch4 in
in cubase:
Both left guitar -> interface ch3 and both right guitar -> interface ch4.
Then I made 2 new channels with one panned left and interface ch3 in, and the other one panned right with interface ch4 in.
Then I hit record and got all 4 guitar channels down to 2 reverbed channels. mixing all 6 channels togeather sound really good!

Is this correct?

Is'nt this the same as going trough the mixers main outs? In that case I think it's a bit easier, I can have the reverb conneted to my mixer all the time and just route the channels. But In the way I tried today I'll have the ability to change the verb at any time, so I get your point that this would be better. Actually, I figured that out while I wrote the last sentence

[Boswell]

I'm glad you got it working well so far. Before you go too much further, it would be worth switching the Virtualizer to mono in -> stereo out mode and seeing whether having stereo reverb is going to get you an even better effect. It may be advantageous to process the two guitars separately in this mode as I indicated in the previous post.

To maintain the best sound quality, you should try to minimize the number of pieces of gear in the signal chain for each process. That's really the only reason I suggested leaving the mixer out of the chain when adding these effects on already-recorded tracks.

[Nutti]

how do I accomplish that? I downloaded the manual and found nothing about switching to a stereo mode?

[DrGonz]

I guess you could call a group channel a stem... However, I think of stems as mono or stereo printed/exported wave files. This could be like how you use a group channel to focus all of the selected tracks into a stereo or mono signal. To me a stem is a printed track that might include some pre-processed (if that's a word?) tracks mixed to one single file. Then you import the stem(s) back into your audio projects. This helps immensely when you want to process a group of tracks w/ some general pre-mixing or effect building processing. Sometimes this can have negative effects on the symmetry of the track and make it more narrow sounding dynamically speaking. Just don't over use this method and it will serve you well.

Edit: whoops... This was in response to the last post on the first page...

thanks for all replys! I'll head out and try them out today, but by creating stems in cubase you mean routing channels in cubase to a group channel?

I'm 100% sure I won't get all the routing right but I'll try and then I'll come back crying for more help

I jumped the gun here but I am not sure the question was answered so oh well.

[Boswell]

how do I accomplish that? I downloaded the manual and found nothing about switching to a stereo mode?

It's in the type of effect dialled in. Since most of the reverb presets use L+R as the input (i.e. a mono drive) and generate a stereo output, the best match to your situation would be to process one guitar at a time with the two tracks combining to mono but producing a stereo reverb output.

There are other setups that split the unit to give two separate mono in -> mono out configurations, but I think that ending up with mono reverbs like that will sound a bit flat.