Difference between TRS and TS cables...

[jazzy655]

Yo guys, i've got a real newbie question here.
What is the difference between TRS cables and TS cables??
The reason I ask is because I just realized that I've been using TRS cables coming out of my Roland Synth, straight into me cheapo patchbay, then from there into a pair of TS cables on the other side of the patchbay into whatever pre i'm running the synth to.

Am I losing signal , and should I be using TS cables out of my synths?
What broght this up is I just got a RNC and it makes a big deal about balanced and unbalanced signals and stuff like that.

I've never really paid any attention to this kind of stuff. If I plugged in a cable, and got a sound, i figured it was all good?

Thanks for any info....

[Seedlings]

TRS (tip, ring, sleeve) implies it carries a stereo signal. TS would be mono.

Tip-sleeve is one channel
ring-sleeve is the other channel

Does your "cheapo patchbay" have configurations for TS and TRS?

I'm not sure TS rather than TRS (or vice-versa) would invite noise. If you have a mono signal, you just don't use the other conductor in a TRS cable. Someone else will clarify further.

CHAD

[IIRs]

TRS cables can be used to carry stereo or balanced mono signals.

Your RNC probably uses them to provide balanced IO: it may be designed to work correctly with balanced TRS cables or unbalanced TS (like my little Mackie mixer), but best to check the manual if in doubt..

[Cucco]

TRS is balanced.

TS is unbalanced.

The ONLY pro-audio oriented device that I'm aware of that uses a TRS configured plug for stereo is a pair of Headphones. No Pro-Audio device uses it for stereo.

The TS can invite in additional noise as the unbalanced cable is not actively shielded/grounded. As well, balanced and unbalanced signal levels are different. They are not always compatible.

As for the FMR, you must enter the unit with an unbalanced signal and leave with an unbalanced signal. Or, in the case of an insert (TRS - Tip=Send, Ring=Return) you can simply patch a standard TRS patchcable between the insert and the input of the RNC as their inputs also provide output across a TRS cable.

If you go into your patchbay balanced but come out unbalanced into your FMR, you are actually doing the right thing. This will unbalance the signal prior to sending it to the FMR and then you can bring it back to the patchbay and then patch back out as either balanced or unbalanced.

Hope this helps.

J.

[43hertz]

If you go into your patchbay balanced but come out unbalanced into your FMR, you are actually doing the right thing. This will unbalance the signal prior to sending it to the FMR and then you can bring it back to the patchbay and then patch back out as either balanced or unbalanced.

.

I'm pretty sure this is not correct.

Once you unbalance the signal, running it back through the patchbay will not make it balanced again, even if you use a TRS cable. The only way to "re-balance" it, for lack of a better word, is to run it through an active circuit or a transformer.

[Cucco]

If you go into your patchbay balanced but come out unbalanced into your FMR, you are actually doing the right thing. This will unbalance the signal prior to sending it to the FMR and then you can bring it back to the patchbay and then patch back out as either balanced or unbalanced.

.

I'm pretty sure this is not correct.

Once you unbalance the signal, running it back through the patchbay will not make it balanced again, even if you use a TRS cable. The only way to "re-balance" it, for lack of a better word, is to run it through an active circuit or a transformer.

Sorry - lack of wording on my part.

You're correct - you cannot make an unbalanced signal balanced except through a balancing device. I simply left this out - if you come directly out of the patchbay, even over a TRS, you're still unbalanced (in level that is) - however, if you choose to, you can re-balance the signal. (Aphex makes a great device to do this with and it's not expensive. Of course, chat with Kev for 5 minutes and he'll sell you on the merits of making your own...)

Thanks for catching that!

J.

[43hertz]

If you go into your patchbay balanced but come out unbalanced into your FMR, you are actually doing the right thing. This will unbalance the signal prior to sending it to the FMR and then you can bring it back to the patchbay and then patch back out as either balanced or unbalanced.

.

I'm pretty sure this is not correct.

Once you unbalance the signal, running it back through the patchbay will not make it balanced again, even if you use a TRS cable. The only way to "re-balance" it, for lack of a better word, is to run it through an active circuit or a transformer.

Sorry - lack of wording on my part.

You're correct - you cannot make an unbalanced signal balanced except through a balancing device. I simply left this out - if you come directly out of the patchbay, even over a TRS, you're still unbalanced (in level that is) - however, if you choose to, you can re-balance the signal. (Aphex makes a great device to do this with and it's not expensive. Of course, chat with Kev for 5 minutes and he'll sell you on the merits of making your own...)

Thanks for catching that!

J.

No offense, Cucco, but balanced or unbalanced has bigger consequences than loss of level. Balanced cables use seperate hot, cold, and ground connectors versus unbalanced that only use hot and ground. If you come into a balanced patchbay with an unbalanced cable and back out with a balanced cable you've not only lost the level but you've lost all the benefits of noise reduction that a balanced signal provides. That's my biggest gripe about the RNC. It is otherwise a pretty cool peice of gear, but I refuse, strictly on principal, to patch it into an otherwise balanced signal chain.

[Cucco]

No offense taken. I also referenced the noise issue with unbalanced vs. balanced in my first post. However, in a racked situation where cable runs are short and compressors are often patched as inserts anyway, the RNC does a fine job. I have 2 of them myself and haven't ever had any problems with excess noise.

Would I say it's the finest compressor on the planet? No, of course not, but it is quite nice on several things. Regardless of balanced/unbalanced, it's still nice.

J.

[dwoz]

TRS is balanced.

TS is unbalanced.

erm...no. TRS CAN be balanced, and TS is ALWAYS unbalanced, but TRS can certainly be unbalanced as well, and often is.

The ONLY pro-audio oriented device that I'm aware of that uses a TRS configured plug for stereo is a pair of Headphones. No Pro-Audio device uses it for stereo.

Dangerous assumption. would you stake your dinner on it?

The TS can invite in additional noise as the unbalanced cable is not actively shielded/grounded. As well, balanced and unbalanced signal levels are different. They are not always compatible.

oh, my goodness, how PREPOSTEROUS! "TS cables" are most CERTAINLY shielded/grounded! balanced/unbalanced has NOTHING to do with signal levels!!!!

Hope this helps.

J.

actually, I think it helped very little. Perhaps a little refresher on just what "balanced" means would be in order? Great:


A "balanced line" is merely a transmission configuration that consists of two signal-carrying lines, and a shield. The shield carries NO INFORMATION. The two "hot" signal carrying lines exhibit the exact same impedance referenced to shield. Typically, the shield is connected at both ends to earth, but might only be connected at one end.

At the input of a balanced line, a differential amplifier amplifies the DIFFERENCE between the two lines. Since noise such as RFI and hum typically manifests the same on both lines (because the impedance WRT ground is exactly the same), then the "common mode" signal...the signal that is the same on both lines, is rejected.

A balanced line makes no distinction whether the signal is passing on one line, or the other, or both...as long as there is a differential, then it works.

A "true balanced" line typically has a signal on one line, and the inverse signal on the other line. When passed through a differential amplifier, the resulting signal is 3db higher than what one leg or the other are separately.

A "psuedo-balanced or electronically" balanced line typically has signal on only one side, and both sides are tied to ground through resistors, so both sides "see" the same impedance to ground, so the common-mode rejection works.

There is no requirement about signal level. it can be mic level, line level, speaker level, whatever.

Again, the main benefit to balanced line, is that it allows for COMMON-MODE rejection of noise that may be induced on the connecting line.


dwoz

[Cucco]

TRS is balanced.

TS is unbalanced.

erm...no. TRS CAN be balanced, and TS is ALWAYS unbalanced, but TRS can certainly be unbalanced as well, and often is.

erm...uh - now you're just picking small semantics battles. This is ridiculous. Of course you could run an unbalanced signal over a balanced cable. This is the old "a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square" game.

The ONLY pro-audio oriented device that I'm aware of that uses a TRS configured plug for stereo is a pair of Headphones. No Pro-Audio device uses it for stereo.

dangerous assumption. would you stake your dinner on it?

Yeah, in most cases I would. Very few components actually use a TRS as a stereo output. Even fewer make it into a standard studio.

The TS can invite in additional noise as the unbalanced cable is not actively shielded/grounded. As well, balanced and unbalanced signal levels are different. They are not always compatible.

oh, my goodness, how PREPOSTEROUS! "TS cables" are most CERTAINLY shielded/grounded! balanced/unbalanced has NOTHING to do with signal levels!!!!

Well, I'm referencing construction of the cable and its two-pole nature, not the design of a balanced or unbalanced circuit. Notice, the question pertains to TS vs TRS - not balanced vs. unbalanced circuits.

Hope this helps.

J.

actually, I think it helped very little. Perhaps a little refresher on just what "balanced" means would be in order? Great:


A "balanced line" is merely a transmission configuration that consists of two signal-carrying lines, and a shield. The shield carries NO INFORMATION. The two "hot" signal carrying lines exhibit the exact same impedance referenced to shield. Typically, the shield is connected at both ends to earth, but might only be connected at one end.

At the input of a balanced line, a differential amplifier amplifies the DIFFERENCE between the two lines. Since noise such as RFI and hum typically manifests the same on both lines (because the impedance WRT ground is exactly the same), then the "common mode" signal...the signal that is the same on both lines, is rejected.

A balanced line makes no distinction whether the signal is passing on one line, or the other, or both...as long as there is a differential, then it works.

A "true balanced" line typically has a signal on one line, and the inverse signal on the other line. When passed through a differential amplifier, the resulting signal is 3db higher than what one leg or the other are separately.

A "psuedo-balanced or electronically" balanced line typically has signal on only one side, and both sides are tied to ground through resistors, so both sides "see" the same impedance to ground, so the common-mode rejection works.

There is no requirement about signal level. it can be mic level, line level, speaker level, whatever.

Again, the main benefit to balanced line, is that it allows for COMMON-MODE rejection of noise that may be induced on the connecting line.


dwoz

Okay, great, you know how a balanced circuit works. Congratulations. Now, one of these days you'll acquire some personal skills and instead of being a grade A a$$hole to answer a question, you'll simply answer it. As for my reference to level, I'm simply referring to the common practice amongst manufacturers to differ the output levels of balanced versus unbalanced signals. A practice which is rather standard.

If you feel like being a DICK on the internet, do it somewhere else. If you would like to contribute not just answers but a meaning to something resembling a society, then fix your attitude.

Now, before you feel like you have to reply and be an even BIGGER Dick - ask yourself, is it worth it? Frankly, I'm sick and tired of a$$holes like you coming around here insulting folks acting like you have something to prove. Go do it somewhere else.

Oh, and by the way, before you come around here insulting individuals or telling people they don't know what the hell they're talking about, why don't you post some


F&$^ING CREDENTIALS
Like a Web-site or some of your clients or ANYTHING that tells us who the hell you are. I'm afraid no one can be taken seriously if all they do is insult others and not even tell us what kind of background they have.

J.