Getting that raunchy heavy guitar sound

[lucky1]

Hi yall, I have been recording for many years. I agree with everyone who likes the sound of ONE speaker when recording. The best amp that I ever had to record with was a peavy artist with a black widow speaker.
For a real real quick sound in the studio. Get a marshall jmp pre amp and go out of the speaker simulated outs straight into your board. then it is s o easy to cut left and right guitar tracks.

[RemyRAD]

Thanks CoyoteTrax!

separation as you know, since you are a guitarist, you can certainly go crazy with different ways of miking your guitar for both mono and stereo applications. I certainly prefer the fast and simple way of slamming a SM 57 onto a cabinet and if desired, some other Mike's for the room if I don't create a room electronically/digitally. Even when you don't believe you have a terribly good sounding room, a room microphone, with a little delay on it sounds a lot different than without the delay. Plus you can also send that room microphone into a digital effects device, adding some early reflections, delay, extra verb and turn it into something that never was.

Of course the bottom line is how it blends with the rest of the instrumentation? It's difficult to reproduce the instrument as it appears live so we are trying to reinvent it, in an acoustically compelling way. You never really end up doing what you think should be done because nine times out of 10, it won't sound right with everything else.

I'll blow an amplifier before I'll blow.......
Ms. Remy Ann David

[separation]

While I agree with you that getting a quick and dirty sound out of a jmp pre or even a PODxt which I have, I don't want to go that route. I've heard some bigger bands in Richmond, most notably MENSREA who are members of GWAR who record right here in Richmond. They are amazing musicians and their material is just crazy. However, their last cd didn't quite do it for me a 100%. It sounded SUPER UBER polish and prestine and glassy. If that makes any sense at all. I felt like the whole cd was recorded direct in. When I talked to them about it I found out that in fact all the guitars and bass were in fact directly recorded and the drums triggered. I would rather stay away from that method because I feel like I could get that fairly easily. I really want to do this the right way and actually learn how big metal bands record their guitar parts. I've learned quite a bit on my own and reading material but I just wondered what processes y'all have done in your years of experience. I'm still quite the newbie although I've been recording now for about 5 years. The differences in my mixes over the years is incredible. Granted when they are THAT bad its hard NOT to improve...lol!

If in a major recording environment the only real difference in getting those guitar tones is just the room and preamps I can live with that. I can't just run out and by a beautiful Neve console, unless RemyRAD wants to hook me up with the deal of a lifetime...LOL! Just kidding, but you get the drift. So if I'm following the right thougths and all they are doing is just putting a nice SM57 on the grill and a nice room mic into a Neve Pre and into Pro Tools or whateve. Then I can go to bed happy that I'm doing the best I can. However, if there is a whole other door that I just haven't opened in my mind as to how to do this then I would love for that door to be opened. I think that is my biggest hurdle! At least with recording guitars. All the other instruments are just insane and will take me years to figure out but since I actually play the guitar I feel like I want to step up my recording prowess a little in regards to them.

Where there is a will there is a way. Right?

Hi yall, I have been recording for many years. I agree with everyone who likes the sound of ONE speaker when recording. The best amp that I ever had to record with was a peavy artist with a black widow speaker.
For a real real quick sound in the studio. Get a marshall jmp pre amp and go out of the speaker simulated outs straight into your board. then it is s o easy to cut left and right guitar tracks.

[CoyoteTrax]

Along the lines of what madam Remy just said, sometimes if there's not enough seperation or "placement" in the sonic field happening with the electric guitar I'll do a little multing trick I love to use sometimes to really help create that live room feel.

In your studio software, send one track to three different aux busses. In the first bus shelf everything above 250Hz then compress it, then splash it with verb. All three plugs in the one bus, right?

Ok

Second aux bus - shelf the lows below 250Hz and everything above 6kHz, compress, add verb.

Third bus - shelf everything below 6kHz and above 12kHz, compress, add verb.

Then adjust how much of each aux channel you want in the mix.

Once you've got this all setup you can bus other instruments to those aux channels if you'd like as well. It has a tendency sometimes to act as sort of a sonic-canvas-glue to help you place instruments on the soundstage.

It may sound stupid, it may sound like alot of work, but it's an awesome way to emulate some very cool tricks were done in the motown days.

Also, the single speaker thing is dead on. Some of the biggest tones I get with electric guitar are miking a single speaker on an old tandberg tube-driven RTR from the early 60's. Thick, lovely beefy signal with raunchy, roiling sustained harmonics and dynamics that you just can't immitate or emulate. Add a multi-fx processor in front of it and the sky's the limit.

Something else that hasn't been mentioned yet (possibly for $$$ reasons) is the ever-magic and classic JMP-1. I haven't heard a guitar pre in the world that touches the sounds a JMP-1 makes. Even my Tubester DS-1 can't do what that thing does. But the Tubester creates the most obscene molten lava-style distortion I've ever heard, so...pick your poison.

[Davedog]

Its a good thing that as a gitarwanker you're really interested in how to get that sound. This has been a very good thread, in that, you have been offered a look at particular methods which will work in many different situations. I cannot reiterate enough about the volume and the single speaker. And the dynamic mic, be it a 57 or a Sennheiser or an Electro-Voice or a ribbon, this is where the guitar tone really developes. Your condenser just doesnt have the sound for a loud close-mic'd amplifier. As a room mic it will do just fine.

Its been suggested a couple of times that 'layering' your guitar sound will get you closer to what you seek. Another positive. And dont shy away from the POD or your digital effects module. I know what you mean when you mention bands who have gone the pristine route and have consequently homogenized their sound in doing so.

By layering the sounds, you can keep the live feel as well as augment its size with the digital gear. If you have enough tracks available, record two passes of the same sound using an amp setup. Then alter this slightly or even go to another guitar with different p/u's and record a couple more passes. Then find a sound in the POD of the effects rack and make yet another couple of passes. Subbuss these as was suggested and sort it out from there.

Chances are it'll be much more than you can imagine at this point.

Compression and different EQ's on each pass will give you that 'glue' that brings it all into focus.

Another helpful thing to consider when you're using a 4-12 cab in a room thats not controlled, is to use packing blankets or office dividers with blankets and create an environment for the cab to live in. This will cut down on a lot of reflections that may be causing your sound to shrink. A heavy cover over the cab with only one speaker totally exposed will also cut down on the amount of phasing created by the multiple speakers.

[separation]

thanks so much to all three of y'all. Excellent information. This is certainly a great thread. I just wanted to state this again to make sure that you know how I'm doing this currently.

LEFT
Guitar SM57
Guitar MD421
Guitar Direct Line signal for post processing

RIGHT
Guitar SM57
Guitar MD421
Guitar Direct Line signal for post processing


I typically will lower the volume and gain down as much as I can but that is always difficult. There is a really good cd that I have from a band that I really admire who went in the studio and turned down there gain so much that when you heard it they sounded like they had lost all energy, punch, and power. While its a must to reduce the gain and volume down its a fine line before the sound becomes so different from what you are trying to achieve that it stinks.

The only professional recording that I've ever been a part of recorded their guitars in two separate rooms. One wood floored live room and another smaller vocal room. Both rooms had 4x12 cabs and they only used an SM57 on each cab. Nothing fancy. I know they recorded their guitars similar to what I mentioned uptop but I wasn't there for the whole process to see how it all fit together. I know they used two guitar tracks since they had two guitarists and each player had a different sounding guitar but the same amp. They would use a mesa boogie dual rectifier for the main guitars and then a 5150 head for the stab lines. I'm in love with their guitar tone and just recently have I come very close to it. My guitar tone isn't quite what they have BUT then again I don't want it to be exactly their tone anyway. Just a guide.

I've even messed around with having one guitar track Eq'd differently than the other. Not a drastic change but enough to tell that its not the same guitar sound. Then panning them right and left and listening. When my brother mixes the signals he normally used the direct signal to feed Amp Farm and then uses that as the little more definition from the amp. I love the Mesa Triple Rec but it really is a little fuzzy and has a lot of high end to it. Sometimes that can lead to definition loss especially at low tunings. We tune to Drop C but I have recently had bands that are playing six string guitars tuned to Drop B!! Yikes. what a mess. Fortunately they are using Gibson Les pauls with those kickass pickups so they still really shred either way.

Its a good thing that as a gitarwanker you're really interested in how to get that sound. This has been a very good thread, in that, you have been offered a look at particular methods which will work in many different situations. I cannot reiterate enough about the volume and the single speaker. And the dynamic mic, be it a 57 or a Sennheiser or an Electrovoice or a ribbon, this is where the guitar tone really developes. Your condenser just doesnt have the sound for a loud close-mic'd amplifier. As a room mic it will do just fine.

Its been suggested a couple of times that 'layering' your guitar sound will get you closer to what you seek. Another positive. And dont shy away from the POD or your digital effects module. I know what you mean when you mention bands who have gone the pristine route and have consequently homogenized their sound in doing so.

By layering the sounds, you can keep the live feel as well as augment its size with the digital gear. If you have enough tracks available, record two passes of the same sound using an amp setup. Then alter this slightly or even go to another guitar with different p/u's and record a couple more passes. Then find a sound in the POD of the effects rack and make yet another couple of passes. Subbuss these as was suggested and sort it out from there.

Chances are it'll be much more than you can imagine at this point.

Compression and different EQ's on each pass will give you that 'glue' that brings it all into focus.

Another helpful thing to consider when you're using a 4-12 cab in a room thats not controlled, is to use packing blankets or office dividers with blankets and create an environment for the cab to live in. This will cut down on a lot of reflections that may be causing your sound to shrink. A heavy cover over the cab with only one speaker totally exposed will also cut down on the amount of phasing created by the multiple speakers.

[SuprSpy79]

If you lower your gain then CRANK the volume, get that speaker moving.
I love that.

thanks so much to all three of y'all. Excellent information. This is certainly a great thread. I just wanted to state this again to make sure that you know how I'm doing this currently.

LEFT
Guitar SM57
Guitar MD421
Guitar Direct Line signal for post processing

RIGHT
Guitar SM57
Guitar MD421
Guitar Direct Line signal for post processing


I typically will lower the volume and gain down as much as I can but that is always difficult. There is a really good cd that I have from a band that I really admire who went in the studio and turned down there gain so much that when you heard it they sounded like they had lost all energy, punch, and power. While its a must to reduce the gain and volume down its a fine line before the sound becomes so different from what you are trying to achieve that it stinks.

The only professional recording that I've ever been a part of recorded their guitars in two separate rooms. One wood floored live room and another smaller vocal room. Both rooms had 4x12 cabs and they only used an SM57 on each cab. Nothing fancy. I know they recorded their guitars similar to what I mentioned uptop but I wasn't there for the whole process to see how it all fit together. I know they used two guitar tracks since they had two guitarists and each player had a different sounding guitar but the same amp. They would use a mesa boogie dual rectifier for the main guitars and then a 5150 head for the stab lines. I'm in love with their guitar tone and just recently have I come very close to it. My guitar tone isn't quite what they have BUT then again I don't want it to be exactly their tone anyway. Just a guide.

I've even messed around with having one guitar track Eq'd differently than the other. Not a drastic change but enough to tell that its not the same guitar sound. Then panning them right and left and listening. When my brother mixes the signals he normally used the direct signal to feed Amp Farm and then uses that as the little more definition from the amp. I love the Mesa Triple Rec but it really is a little fuzzy and has a lot of high end to it. Sometimes that can lead to definition loss especially at low tunings. We tune to Drop C but I have recently had bands that are playing six string guitars tuned to Drop B!! Yikes. what a mess. Fortunately they are using Gibson Les pauls with those kickass pickups so they still really shred either way.

Its a good thing that as a gitarwanker you're really interested in how to get that sound. This has been a very good thread, in that, you have been offered a look at particular methods which will work in many different situations. I cannot reiterate enough about the volume and the single speaker. And the dynamic mic, be it a 57 or a Sennheiser or an Electrovoice or a ribbon, this is where the guitar tone really developes. Your condenser just doesnt have the sound for a loud close-mic'd amplifier. As a room mic it will do just fine.

Its been suggested a couple of times that 'layering' your guitar sound will get you closer to what you seek. Another positive. And dont shy away from the POD or your digital effects module. I know what you mean when you mention bands who have gone the pristine route and have consequently homogenized their sound in doing so.

By layering the sounds, you can keep the live feel as well as augment its size with the digital gear. If you have enough tracks available, record two passes of the same sound using an amp setup. Then alter this slightly or even go to another guitar with different p/u's and record a couple more passes. Then find a sound in the POD of the effects rack and make yet another couple of passes. Subbuss these as was suggested and sort it out from there.

Chances are it'll be much more than you can imagine at this point.

Compression and different EQ's on each pass will give you that 'glue' that brings it all into focus.

Another helpful thing to consider when you're using a 4-12 cab in a room thats not controlled, is to use packing blankets or office dividers with blankets and create an environment for the cab to live in. This will cut down on a lot of reflections that may be causing your sound to shrink. A heavy cover over the cab with only one speaker totally exposed will also cut down on the amount of phasing created by the multiple speakers.

[separation]

Ok. I finally got some ROUGH and I do mean ROUGH mixes from our new recording. The drums were done by my brother with his ProTools LE rig and then he just sent me a stereo drum track back to me to finish the rest of the recording. The guitars in this case were straight from the board with no EQ other than I did drop 6 dbs under 50 Hz just to get rid of the mud down there. There are two guitar tracks one panned about 82L and 82R, then the bass was just finished but I didn't really even get a chance to do much with it yet. There is a direct signal through my Avalon and then another channel into the A&H that is passing through his Sansamp rack preamp. The keyboards were just finished two nights ago and have NOTHING done to them. I just set levels. In fact, the ending section needs to come up A LOT!!

There were 3 mics on each guitar track.
1. SM57 on a 45 degree angle pointing from the cone and out on a horizontal plane (left to right).
2. e609 on the cone.
3. MD421 similar to the SM57 but instead of a horizontal 45 degree bend its more vertical (up and down)

Here is an image of the levels set:

www.separatedmusic.net/guitar_levels.bmp

You can check the track out at the following location:

www.separatedmusic.net/separation.mp3

Maybe this will help explain where I'm coming from with our guitar recording.

[RemyRAD]

I found your song and mixing technically satisfying. I did seem to find one of the guitars a little left heavy?

Your brother did a nice job with the drums. Your guitars did sound truly huge while I felt all of the metal and all of the death around me!

I like the different progressions throughout the song and the different textures you created with your collection of chainsaws.

I was most particularly intrigued by the vocal. Although I think your vocalist might be a little too timid for death metal? Did he start after the song was over, or was he 6 feet under??

(Obviously a worthless review from a nutcase)
Ms. Remy Ann David

[separation]

REMY!!! Yeah we buried him out back never to see the light of day :shock: j/k. Vocals will be the last thing on the table. Hopefully it won't take too long to put them together but I fear the worst. I felt these guitars were A LOT more warm sounding than the last band we recorded. Most of that is just that we aren't using any of the direct signal for this recording. Just off the amp. We'll see if that doesn't come back to haunt us but I'm pretty confident it will be ok. This song will be a lot different than most anything we have recorded before. The vocals during the song are heavy screaming vocals but the ending part with all the keyboard stuff is a huge singing melody that really sounds kinda pretty. Ooopsss...did I say that for a metal song? LOL. Just something a little different. We like to layer different forms of sound and style together and see how it works. I guess we'll see once its done.

So you don't hear anything so very wrong with the guitars that it would say "stop the presses"? I'm going to check into the left guitar being a little louder than the other, could just be a level set since it is a totally different track than the right side.

thanks for the comments Remy!! ALWAYS appreciated!

I found your song and mixing technically satisfying. I did seem to find one of the guitars a little left heavy?

Your brother did a nice job with the drums. Your guitars did sound truly huge while I felt all of the metal and all of the death around me!

I like the different progressions throughout the song and the different textures you created with your collection of chainsaws.

I was most particularly intrigued by the vocal. Although I think your vocalist might be a little too timid for death metal? Did he start after the song was over, or was he 6 feet under??

(Obviously a worthless review from a nutcase)
Ms. Remy Ann David