Serpentarius Introduces Himself With A Song

[Serpentarius]

Hi all!

I'm brand new to this forum so let me introduce myself, before anything:

I'm a professional opera singer and have been since 2001. I've been singing since I was 7. Music is what I do and have always done, however lately I've become interested in other pursuits, such as writing and cooking. I received my singing and opera education in London, England and Stockholm, Sweden respectively. While at college in London I was introduced to computer-based music making and have been hooked ever since. The last 6-7 years I've picked up the music production again in a more serious fashion and I'm toying with the idea to change careers—well, we'll see about that. It all depends on what you guys say!

Regarding my knowledge of music production—mixing, mastering and recording—I'm almost totally self-taught, apart from the 6 years at college, although what I got there was pretty basic, considering the technical possibilities existing today. Basically, I know quite a lot but due to my lacking formal education regarding music production, I don't know where the gaps are. So I decided to come here to try to find out and hopefully fill them in.

Now, to business!

I have here a song I've been working on—for years actually—with a friend. Lack of consistent time has forced us to drag this process out way longer than we wanted. It's all done with software synths, apart from the guitar parts and the singing. Of course, I have a zillion different versions of it and this is the latest one. I'm well aware of the problem of working in a basically untreated room, and in this latest version I've tried to counter the absurd bass resonances I get sitting in the sweet spot. I quickly noticed this listening to previous versions, where of course it was way too heavy in the high frequencies and way too thin in the low frequencies. So I attempted to remedy this by adding a few mastering plugins, mainly the Waves L3-16 and MaxxBass. Maybe it's too much, I don't know. I've compared it to a reference track and to my ears it's alright, but I need a second opinion!

Ciao for now!

Sacred Eagle by Serpentarius on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

[bigtree]

Musically, reminds me of Steely Dan. very cool! Your vocal does not sound operatic at all. You are covering that up very well.
About the only thing I would critique is the kick drum is a bit to dominating for me (sounds like a drum machine). A slight more reverb on it and take off about 2 db around 2.5k to 4k and I would love the mix. Just so it doesn't stand out there so much.

Nice.

Please share your gear list and some of your mixing tricks on this track?

[Serpentarius]

Hi bigtree!

Thanks for the compliments!

Your points about the kick drum and the slightly sharp highs is spot on—and I'm aware of them. I noticed when I played a version of the mix I liked on my hifi, that the treble is way too sharp to the ears. Regarding the kick drum, yeah, in this version I tried to boost the lower frequencies a bit more because when I compared it to my reference track (Incognito's "Will I Ever Learn") the bass sounded way too thin, particularly the bass guitar. In the Incognito track the bass guitar sounds very lush and liquid but not at all overpowering and I tried to somehow get closer to that sound. Of course, I didn't record a $7000 bass in a top-notch studio so I know some things are impossible to achieve just working with computer-based sounds and synths, but I try to get as close as I can. So what I did was take the worst treble peaks off (but not enough!) with the L3-16 and boost the bass with MaxxBass, but admittedly I didn't fiddle around with the settings too much—and evidently not enough. Maybe that's the right way to go, that is, to use the L3-16 to try to tame the kick? Or I could go back and fix it in the mix, .i.e. just work on the bass guitar and kick drum sounds individually, before making (yet another) master. And while I'm at it, take the high frequencies down even more. Regarding the cymbal sounds, maybe too much cutting in the low end is what's making them sound too sharp to the ears? I've read that there's not much sonic information in cymbals below, say, 200Hz, but cutting too much leaves too much treble?

Regarding the gear list, it's there in my profile, but I guess it's easier to just post it here as well:
iMac 3.6 GHz Intel Core i5 12GB RAM, OSX 10.6.8, RME Babyface interface, Genelec 6020A monitors, Novation SL 49 mkII controller keyboard, TSM MT87S mkII and AKG C2000B mics, Charvel and Ibanez guitars, Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro headphones, loads of Waves and other plugins.
DAW is Logic Pro 8.0.2 and Reason 5.0 as slave for sounds and synths.

The only thing I haven't used on this track is the the AKG mic.

Mixing tricks...

I suppose I went about the whole thing pretty much the standard way. Cutting the sub bass in most tracks, brightening up the dullness of the vocal recording, panning the rhythm guitars left-right, but not all the way. Actually, I had to work a lot on the vocals, because at the time I recorded it I had no SE Electronics X1 Reflexion Filter and no mic stand, which means I held the TSM mic in my hand sitting right in front of the computer! Consequently, there was a lot of noise and rumble coming from the computer and my handling the mic. I thought about recording it again using the reflection filter, but eventually decided to keep the original recording because I liked the delivery and the phrasing, and I knew I couldn't replicate it.

One of my little mixing quirks is to use uneven numbers when panning. I'm sure it doesn't make a difference, but I just had a fix idea about that. The horn section is actually three different sections that I tried to combine so that it sounded like one: a regular trumpet section, a loud trumpet section (a couple of dB louder) and a soft french horn section. The french horns are meant to sound like a soft brass section with trombones; I didn't like the specific trombone sounds. So the french horns are used for soft chord pads and occasionally to fill out the trumpet sound, while the trumpets are used for the traditional horn lines and hits. Thus I almost don't use any track automation at all.

I lifted the high frequencies on the backing vocals quite a bit to get more clarity and then lowered the volume to make it fit as a package with the lead. I kind of had the backing vocal treatment of Lenny Kravitz in mind, only not as prominent. The lead in the last verse is tripled, or rather, I sing in unison with the lead on the two backing vocal tracks, and then break into occasional harmonies.

What else... I bussed all the instruments to separate busses; the drums, guitars, bass, keys, horns and vocals and then I EQ'ed them. Is that a kind of stem mixing?

I suppose that's it—pretty straight forward.

Regarding acoustic treatment of the room, I'm in the process of addressing that: I'm planning to build bass traps. Also I'm thinking of adding a sub, to hear the bass frequencies, but first priority is room treatment.

[bigtree]

Hi,

Before I read your reply in detail I wanted to clarify what I meant. I was referring only to the kick, not overall mix. How I would tame the kick, just pull out a few db of upper mids ( where the the hot spot is around 2.5 to 5k) to get rid of the tick ( just a bit). I didn't find the overall mix bright at all. It sound great to me.

[Serpentarius]

Yeah, I re-read your post and realised that. Still, I think it is a bit harsh in the cymbals, maybe they're just a bit loud, no?

[bigtree]

The kick is what stands out to me. I usually don't comment on things that are a more personal flavour or what cannot be changed because it is what it is. Sometimes it takes another set of ears to point out a part we miss because we get used to it. The kick is an easy fix.

Are the drums including the cymbals samples? The cymbals do sound a bit 12 bit and ya, maybe a bit less 5k or so there too. They don't bother me like the kick does. A slight amount of reverb on the kick would help it sit in the mix better.

Stemming is what I do as well, Kudo's. I sum OTB though. I sent stems into a summing amp and add analog glue and colour.

I like the background vocals. That's what adds to that Steely Dan sound I like so much. You don't hear that often so I think you are onto a good sound there. I think your main vocal would sound better in a more live room, better acoustics than with the SE Reflexion Filter. You have such a great sound already, I would invest in my vocal sound a lot now. If you can afford it, look into a bricasti reverb. This would do wonders for opening up your vocal to help improve the ITB sound you are getting from the SE Reflexion Filter. I'm looking at buying one. They are expensive and I keep thinking they will be replaced with a plug-in one day but that doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon, and too much plug-ins aren't good in my opinion anyway. But I'm on the war path back to balance, less plug-ins and a bit of analog boutique spice.

Some analog gear just for your vocal might be just the thing. Something so subtle to take your voice out of the boxy sound and give it some space and a bit of vibe. You are very close, now you just need a little something extra and I think it would be wow.

Hope that helps.

I really like what you are doing.

PS,

Maybe Remy will chime in here and give you some great pointers. She is a lot more experienced with your sound and mix and preamp flavours that could take your sound to the highest level. You are entering that last 2% mode.

[Serpentarius]

Hey, thanks a lot for the constructive criticism!

Actually, the things you're suggesting are exactly what I've been contemplating recently: I was dreaming of getting hold of a good channel strip, or at least a good-sounding preamp for the vocals and maybe one that suits the guitars as well. Any suggestions? I've been ogling the API The Channel Strip, but at the moment it's too expensive. Maybe I can find something used that is equivalent? I'm even toying with the idea of selling off some of my hifi gear; I have a really audiophile setup: a Simaudio MOON i5.3 integrated with a Bluenote (now Goldenote) Koala Tube CD player handmade in Italy and a vinyl player from Hanss Acoustics, German brand making some of its parts in China. (I don't like that, but for once I compromised.) Speakers are a three-way design by Audiophysic, also German. It all sounds really excellent, but I don't have much time to actually listen to music for any longer period of time these days. So I thought maybe if I sell off at least some of it, I can invest in something like you're suggesting. The Bricasti reverb is unfortunately way out of my league, at $3700! If I get hold of that much money at the same time I think I'd go for something more versatile that I could use with the guitars, as well as the rest. Also, I've been thinking of getting a Radial Workhorse for the API 500 series gear: it actually contains a built-in 8-channel summing mixer. What do you think of that piece of gear?

And that summing mixer thing I've been looking into as well. Like I said if I get the money together I'd go for something along the lines of the Radial Workhorse, unless I can find a good deal on a used separate summing mixer. Any suggestions? API does a small version of the "lunchbox" format with 3 slots, if I remember correctly. That's probably cheaper but would it be enough to improve on the vocal sound? I like the fact that the Radial has a built-in summing mixer. And it's half the price of the Bricasti reverb!

Next time I might try to finish the mixing of the instruments, put the file on a laptop and take it to the opera house where I work and record the vocals in one of their rooms. You think that might give it a nicer sound?

Speaking of reverbs, I do use the Lexicon LXP reverb bundle. I haven't really explored it enough yet.

Yes, I also want to get away a bit from the ITB thing, money permitting. Music production gear is so expensive and I'm not a professional who can deduct buying stuff like this off my taxes! At least, not yet.

Thanks again for your input, it's greatly appreciated!

[bigtree]

Personally, I think your mixes are to the point that you don't want to go summing OTB unless you invest in high end from this point. It becomes expensive to get that last 2% and you need to do it right. However, tracking and doing some things to help gel your vocal and guitar are a great idea. But your guitar sound in this track is good enough to me. Your lead VOX however is where I would put my money.

I'm a musician (guitarist)/composer/mixer more than I am a recordist so you'll get better help from someone else from this point.

I can however give you some advice on hybrid. Two companies I recommend most for hybrid DAW systems are SPL and Dangerous Music. I'm not familiar with the Radial Workhorse.

You might just need to ADDA your vocal out to a few 500 series goodies, don't know. On this track however, I would personally be looking to improve your vocal sound though a better acoustic space and using gear to add a bit of vibe. This could be a different mic, preamp and quality converter during the tracking process.

[Serpentarius]

Are the drums including the cymbals samples? The cymbals do sound a bit 12 bit and ya, maybe a bit less 5k or so there too. They don't bother me like the kick does. A slight amount of reverb on the kick would help it sit in the mix better.

Yes, they are samples, but actually I think they are 24bit samples. I'm note sure, as we speak, whether they come from the built-in Logic drum kits or the Reason sample library, but if they are from Reason they should be 24bit. I'll check and let you know.

I checked now and the cymbal sounds and percussion are from Logic Pro's built-in drum kits. I decided to use them rather than the cymbals from Reason because I thought they sounded better. However, I'll use the Reason 24bit samples next time to see if they sound better.

I had a look at the SPL stuff and it seems very interesting indeed. Not as expensive as I imagined. I had a closer look at their channel strip Channel One and it retails at around €1209—around $1600, which is affordable by pro audio standards.

I read a review of Dangerous Music's summing mixers, 2-BUS and 2-BUS LT, and that made me interested in the analogue summing business. I don't know much about their other products though. I'll have a closer look and I'll try to understand all the tech talk.

When you mention quality converters, do you mean products like the RME Babyface that I'm using? As far as sound cards go I'm really not too good with the ins and outs of digital-to-analogue and analogue-to-digital conversion. I mean, I don't really need loads of I/O's because I mostly work alone or with a friend and record one track at a time. That's why I figured the Babyface was good enough, with quality conversion and a clean preamp sound. Am I correct in assuming that you're saying there's much more quality to be had regarding ADDA conversion? Are you suggesting that I replace the Babyface? In that case, any suggestions with what, that would not at the same time be overkill for my needs?

[bigtree]

This is big topic with many opinions.

I find the biggest issue with digital music and mixing ITB is when you introduce vocals or other acoustically recorded sounds > AD to a VSTi environment through average ADDA and low end micpre's. Like the Babyface. Its okay for projects but its not up to your ability IMO. Not after hearing your talent.

I know this sounds weird but you are kind of mixing water with oil. Oil being your analog vox and water being digital. The digital samples and all the VSTi's sound stellar while your real world tracks ( vocals, acoustic guitars etc) sound less quality than your VSTi's. Its a no brainer when we look at it like this.

So, the vocals or acoustic tracks always sound cheap and (IMHO) out of place compared to ITB music. So what do we all start doing? Plug-ins, and more plug-ins.... and what a gong show and what a business! Its called the curse in my world. The plug-in business is growing and no doubt why. But, its not 100% for me and why I choose hybrid. I like plug-ins for certain apps but not as much as the people whom are cursed with it all. The more you are trying to merge the analog world with digital, the more we need to learn how to glue it together. Hybrid is a balance and it helps this all come together better, faster and I think it sounds better, plus you need less plug-ins. I believe the people who claim to have tried hybrid that didn't find it was any better then ITB, missed something in their set-up because I definitely know it sounds better. Is it starting to make more sense?

But...

The next best thing before hybrid is using great quality pre-amps and converters.This will help a lot. You are at least getting your analog chain up to par with the VSTi and super clean digital sound now right? So investing in a few really nice mic's, pre's, and possibly a compressor and eq with some vibe is just the ticket. And this is what people are more opt to do.

And to take it even further, hybrid and specialty gear is when it gets really fun. But... it comes at a price.... You have to do it right or you will fall into the lost crowd that only took it half way and gave up because they didn't understand it all and didn't use quality gear that mattered. Follow?

Its why OTB is growing. When we mix OTB, it helps glue it all better. Once you step into the high end hybrid DAW world, you will start learning about certain products that works great for a vocal buss, bass, guitars, drums etc. and this is when the summing systems like dangerous music or SPL MixDream come into play, and the converters start becoming more and more important because you are going ITB and OTB convertions. But, I will add, I use the MixDream and love the use of the IO switching it has which keeps my need to ADDA down to a min so I am not doing a SRC more than once.

I'm getting deep into this subject so I'll stop now but I thought I would touch on that for future reference. Everytime you do SRC ( sample rate conversion), sound degrades. Its a big topic, way too much for me to try and explain in one sitting but thats it in a nut shell.

I have to stop here. And forgive any typo's . I'll try and correct those the next time I review what I wrote.

Hope that helps a bit more.

Check this out:

http://www.dangerousmusic.com/dbox.html


and this requires a bit more gear but is also very cool:
http://spl.info/en/hardware/summing-...scription.html

And this is a very cool product that uses a different approach:
Folcrom
Cheers!