Do you download music? (from sites like napster)

Discussion in 'Music Business Forum' started by bigtree, Sep 18, 2003.

  1. bigtree

    bigtree musician, mixer, music producer Has Studio Services

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    Just currious to see how many of us download songs or file share (from sites like napster). Feel free to comment...
  2. bigtree

    bigtree musician, mixer, music producer Has Studio Services

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    I never do because I feel this is a big reason why we're not seeing more new bands being signed. I look at this as stealing. So far I stand by this.

    I think the public needs to be educated.

    Where are we headed?
  3. Consul

    Consul Guest

    In the spirit of this poll, I answered no, because I do not use P2P file sharing services.

    However, that does not mean I do not download music. I do, but from artists that choose to allow it. Generally, these are people who have their own home studio and release their stuff as files (occasionally you can even buy a CD) to an Internet audience.

    I'm sure we're all familiar with Mp3.com, but there's also the Internet Underground Music Archive (www.iuma.com) and Ampcast.com. I've found some great artists this way.

    Truthfully, I feel the reason the current music market is failing is because of labels turning out the same old pap over and over and not taking risks. I'm tired of it, to the point where I can't stand the radio anymore, except to listen to some of my favorite NPR shows.

    Just my two cents.

    EDIT: This was my hundredth post! Do I get a cookie? :D :D
  4. bigtree

    bigtree musician, mixer, music producer Has Studio Services

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    Kudo's on you 100th! Keep on truckin.

    It seems labels don't take chances because of the loss in revenue because from tape, CDR and HD. If no one could third party dup there would be way more capital for new artists. I think this is why major labels are pumping out generic sounding music. It sells so I guess this is why they keep on producing it. The sad thing now is it's breeding more and more of it.
    Piracy must have a lot to do with this problem.
  5. Tore Nylund

    Tore Nylund Guest

    Sometimes I download music.... but I do it for two main reasons:
    1. It's a song that's not available in any store.
    Not released or completely sold out. I would buy it if I only it was available.
    Like some of the songs from my old worn-out vinyl collection.
    2. To listen to an artist that I've only been reading about... to see if it's something I'd like to buy..... because it is impossible to hear new music on the radio here that isn't "mainstream".
    So I use it more like a "radio".
    If I like it I'll buy the CD.
    I don't make my own CD's out of those songs.

    I've found many great artists this way... and bought their CD's .

    Sayng that piracy is the whole truth about the drop isn CD sale is a lie.
    Even among people that never download or copy CD's the salas has dropped ~30 %... and that is mainly because the labels has a passion for money and no visions about music and artists.
    When I listen to some of my favourite albums from the 70's, I realize that these artists would NEVER get a record deal if they had started today.
    Tell me wich big label would today release something like:
    Early Genesis
    Frank Zappa
    Gentle Giant
    Early 10 cc?
    It was an adventure to go to the record dealer and listen to new music in the early 70's.... because even big labels released records with very much "artistic freedom".
    That doesn't happen today.
  6. Consul

    Consul Guest

    I think this is why major labels are pumping out generic sounding music. It sells so I guess this is why they keep on producing it. The sad thing now is it's breeding more and more of it.
    Piracy must have a lot to do with this problem.


    I'm not too sure I agree with this. I saw the pattern of "regurgitated pap" happening from the main record labels as early as about 95, long before file trading really took hold. In fact, it was about that long ago that I stopped listening to commercial radio.

    It is possible we may be seeing a "vicious cycle", where homogenized music begets more file swapping which begets more homogenization.

    As for my part, I intend to encourage file trading of my music. I'm a sort-of retro-prog rocker type, and I have no hope of any radio exposure or in-store distribution. My best bet for self-promotion is the Internet and free file swapping in the hopes that I gain fans willing to buy merchandise (not just CDs) to support an artist they like.

    Will it make me a living? I have no idea, but I would like it to. But if it doesn't, will I have fun? I'm willing to bet I will. Isn't that a worthy goal in and of itself?

    EDIT: Added quote to make it clear who I was replying to. Sorry for the confusion.
  7. launchpad67a

    launchpad67a Guest

    I have a "sour" feeling about this whole deal. I feel that the record companies have destroyed themselves by never "embracing" the internet!
    And Also, for never dropping the price of a cd.

    This is a media that has been around for 20+ years and opened on the market at $16 and is still there today. This is terrible, when I can buy a spindle of blanks for $15 (for 50).

    I am all for the artist making money, and always will be....because I have 2 cd's for sale in stores around the country.
    But I don't necessarily discourage P2P sharing, because it Does get your product "out there".

    And for the people that don't know that an MP3 is the Worst possible audio quality (which is most of the public), they should be educated to know and hear the difference, between a .Wav and an Mp3.

    These new companies trying to sell online music for a dollar a song should be shot!! I will not pay any amount for an Mp3 quality file....never!!

    Just my thoughts, and I'm fully involved in this whole process. I really think it's the fault of the "source", the record companies!

    Mike
  8. Dave Nyberg

    Dave Nyberg Guest

    Yeah, it's just soo untrue that labels don't have enough money for artists. After all the artist just get's a very, very little piece of the pie. The label could very easily release the same amount of music. It would just take for these hotshot label dudes to earn a few hundred thousand dollars less a year. Which they are stealing from artists anyway. Here in Holland we had a band called Volumia. They sold millions of records and they maybe earned like 25 million with it. Still the total band (9 ppl) only received 100.000 to share. Where is the rest and who is the real thieve??? And this is by no means a unique story. It happens all the time and more then we might believe. That's why i just don't fall for the loss of revenue crap.

    I'm against theft of any kind, including illegal music but these cries are just so stupid and not appropriate. Back in the old days ppl would copy cassettes all the time. Now it's mp3 and more visible but i really don't think anything has changed at all.
  9. missilanious

    missilanious Guest

    I do not download music, though I often copy CD's from my freinds. For me a morality vs quality issue, for someone to have the nerve to take a full album or singles or songs or whatever and make it avalible to millions of people in a mater of seconds takes some balls. I constently get in arguements with my freinds over this matter and usaully ends with tying music to free speach and our ammendment rights. Most people think artists from labels get paid mega bucks and have so much money, and it doesn't effect the artist but rather the label, and also people don't understand how much money and time are spent into making a "quality" album. I see most of my freinds in college downloading full albums but they always buy the albums after they find it in the stores, than I have other freinds who have not bought an album since audiogalaxy and napster went up, also he refuses to buy any cd's unless there album bootlegs that he buys off a corner venders 3 for $10.
  10. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Moderator

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    What's the difference?

    Getting a copy with out paying is getting a copy without paying........ i must be dense or something........... :confused: :confused: :confused:

    Rod
  11. Consul

    Consul Guest

    I'm inclined to agree with Rod here, and I'm one of the first one's you'll hear say "down with the RIAA!" ;) I feel that if an artist or company doesn't want their songs traded in the public arena, then fine, don't trade them.

    What this will do is open the door for independent artists who are willing to be much more liberal than the labels. Face it, the only thing that will stop a new business model (one favoring the indie artist) from emerging is if they lobby Congress to create a compulsory licensing law forbidding anyone who creates IP works from sharing them freely if they so choose. If they try to pass that kind of law, I will be at the forefront of the public outcry.
  12. falkon2

    falkon2 Guest

    Chris, I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit there. It seems to me that the cause and effect are a wee bit reversed here. Now, the brainless, egotistical, self-centered teen population aside, I feel that people aren't as willing to dole out money for music BECAUSE they're pumping out generic-sounding trash, rather than the other way round. Piracy stems out because of this. Well, of course, not all of it, but I believe that this plays quite a large factor. I'm not discrediting the ease of piracy today vs yesteryear - Just saying that it's not THE primary reason.


    Owell, back on topic - To answer the poll in the strictest sense, no. I avoid P2P programs like the plague, so I suppose it doesn't count. I've amassed what one might call quite a reputable collection of video game music over the years, though. Most of which are done by artists who would sooner get their music out to people than start to care about the money. (Yes, I'm blatantly generalizing here. Woops).

    I DO buy the occasional album from time to time, when they become available where I stay, and not solely because I "want to support the artists".
    Of course, that I do, but I know the other virtues of having the printed CDs rather than the duckcrippled renditions that you get after the amazing music has been brutally smashed into MP3 format.

    Might be a slightly off-tangent discussion, but video game music in itself has evolved from the annoying little bleeps and bloops of the 80's (back then, musicians in the field didn't know crap about the CPUs and ICs and hardware engineers were tone-deaf) to a very diverse "genre" of it's own. Heck, I wouldn't even call it a genre, as it encompasses almost all types of music. Electronica? Megaman. Check. Orchestral? Final Fantasy. Check. Heavy Rock? Guilty Gear X. Check. Rap? Sonic Adventure 2. Check.

    Whoa. I actually think I should be starting another topic. Way to go off tangent, falk. :(
  13. pmolsonmus

    pmolsonmus Moderator

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    I have never downloaded a song and don't intend to, but I'm wrestling with this idea with my 11 year old son who is just now getting into the whole pop music world. "All of his friends are doing it" :roll: and he would like to as well.
    Help me make this argument so that a very bright 11 year old can understand it. I agree stealing is stealing- Have you tried arguing with an adolescent? Who is hurt by the theft? What short term / long term negative impact will be caused by the theft?
    Are MP3's killing the pop music world? IMHO, I think MTV in 1981 struck the initial blow to creative,exciting, interesting stuff. We all accept video as a viable ART form to some degree now. If you're creating music for ART's sake and wish to survive it has ALWAYS been difficult. Don't blame thieves for a lack of new,interesting artists- with the web, it should be easier than ever to have access to a mass audience. The challenge is figuring out how. You can't solve today's problems with yesterday's thinking. If you want to be popular get ready to sell your soul for publicity and marketing, they're still interested in selling lots of units of the daily pap.
    BTW in a similar vein, Hal Leonard Music publ. is located in Milwaukee they are watching the print media copyright very carefully and have JUST photocopy it for educational purposes. I've heard of music teachers losing their jobs and 20K fines being levied on schools. Ouch!!
  14. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Moderator

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    PM,

    I have 5 children, and have never argued with an 11 year old.

    You can try to explain to him that it's wrong.... that taking something that doesn't belong to him is stealing...... and that although his friends may be doing it - doesn't make it right.

    However in the end - sometimes - with a parent - it ends up being - "just because i said so".

    If he were to get caught (and they really seem intent on doing this) you are going to be the one shelling out the cash to pay for it.

    When my children used to look at me and say "well all my friends are doing it"...... i would respond with "then their parents must not be very bright"........ and i never felt that i had to go beyond a reasonable attempt to explain anything to my kids........ sometimes it ended up being just - "hey - when you grow up you can do anything you want - until then i am in charge".

    I understand in this "enlightened age" that everyone wants their children to be on the same page they are....... but it is very difficult to reason with a child when they see other children doing what they want to do.

    I know i haven't helped much with this - haven't found the magic words that will make the light suddenly go on in your child's head.... but i don't honestly think that the words exist.... if they did - you (who know your child like no one else does) would certainly know them better than i ever could.

    One thing - you asked how to explain "Who is hurt by the theft? What short term / long term negative impact will be caused by the theft?"

    None of that is relevant... if your son were to steal a penny from a multi-millionare.... it would not hurt the man whose penny he stole - it would not cause him any short or long term impact - the only negative impact would be to your child.

    Him developing the thought that taking that which is not his is OK - just because he can't see any impact on any one elses life in the long or short term - that in the long run - hurts your child.

    As a parent - we should not want that to happen.......

    Good luck,

    Rod
  15. pmolsonmus

    pmolsonmus Moderator

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    Thanks Rod,
    I'm not trying to justify the stealing, I'm trying to truly assess who (if anyone) is hurt and what truly are the long term ramifications. I know I'm not responsible for the music industry, but I am responsible for my son. The long term ramifications of his not learning right/wrong or theft/purchase is a responsibility I (as one parent who gives a damn anyway)take VERY seriously, even if every other parent could care less. At least I can direct him to this website where he can see I'm not the only one. :) I agree that sometimes as a parent we have to suck it up and say "Because I said so", "That's life, get over it", "Because its the RIGHT thing to do" and a lot of other things. I just hated hearing that growing up and somehow want to give better answers than I got. :confused: I was hoping for some here. Maybe those are the truly BETTER answers??? And people think mastering is hard!!!!
    Phil
  16. UncleBob58

    UncleBob58

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    Here we go again-

    One more time-

    Stealing is stealing. People who steal belong in jail.

    Yes, the media companies make billions. That is their function, to make money for themselves and their stockholders.

    If you don't like the way that they make money, do not support them. Don’t buy their stock. Don't buy their CD's and DVD's. Don't read their newspapers and magazines. Don't log onto their web sites. Don't watch their television networks or listen to their radio stations. Don't use their cell phones. Don't play their video games.

    Sounds unrealistic? Of course it does. We live in a media driven world. That’s the business we’re in, supplying services to the media.

    As far as the blandness of music these days it is a reflection of the corporate mindset. DO NOT TAKE RISKS. Risk means the chance of failure. Failure in the corporate world means loss of revenue and, more importantly to the person(s) taking the risk, the loss of prestige and/or their job and the perks and income that go with it.

    How many of you remember back in the mid/late 90’s with all the large media companies jumping on the band wagon buying up independent record labels in the post Nirvana frenzy? The idea was to purchase already established “new” sounds without the risk of developing it themselves. It just turned into another feeding frenzy that earned them nothing after the initial splash and led them further away from risk taking.

    As far as bands getting screwed by the record companies, it’s a very old story. It usually comes down to inexperienced people not seeking the proper legal advice.

    The argument comparing cassette copies from vinyl albums vs. .mp3 file sharing is completely fallacious. I didn’t see 100,000 people lined up outside my friends’ house to get a copy of the latest Who record. And with a cassette copy there was a marked denigration of quality, with the quality deteriorating every time you copied from cassette to cassette. Even the records and cassettes themselves deteriorated with every play. Completely electronic media does not deteriorate in the same manner. It allows for endless duplication without any loss of quality.


    Uncle Bob

    :p:
  17. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster

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    I download songs but only ones that are not comercially available. If there is a CD that comes out that I like, I purchase it. I think that anyone who has ever tried to make a living playing music understands that downloading is stealing. Blaming the record companies for putting out a stream of crap is only a justification for an unethical action. Sort of like saying it's ok to steal from the cable company or to file a false insurance claim because "They can afford it." It's just an excuse for doing something that you know is wrong.

    I have to disagree with the idea that "generic sounding crap" is a contributing factor for downloading. Like "it's so cruddy I won't pay for it, but I will steal it!" That is like saying that car is such a piece of sh*t, instead of buying from the owner, I'll just take it for a joy ride. Personally, I simply don't want it. If it's good enough, I'll purchase it.

    It was mentioned that since the price of blank CDs has dropped, so should commercially produced CDs.. I don't see the connection. I doesn't cost less to produce a CD or to promote it now than it did fifteen years ago. It costs more.. Everything costs more. I personally don't think $15 or $16 is too much to pay for a CD. Now days you get far more music on a CD than you ever got on a vinyl record. Yeah it costs twice as much but if you figure in inflation and the extra music you get on a CD, I would bet that it really is a better value. Really, some people should just stop being so cheap. This constant search for something of quality at little or no expense (free lunch) is ruining the whole music business, from the manufacturing and marketing of equipment to the retailing of commercial music. Maybe the music isn't as good, so don't buy it. At some point, the record companies will realize that they need to develop better acts to sell more music. As long as they have a "safe" market, with proven product, they will continue to exploit it. wouldn't you? Kurt
  18. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Moderator

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    PM - my friend - i could care less about the RIAA....... and i think that their tactic of going after the kids is a sign that they wield no power against companies like Kazaa...... because if they did they would go for the bucks...... this is a scare tactic to get parents to stop what they can't through other means.....

    However - i raised 5 kids - and know the battle you have with this - and i came to the conclusion a long time ago that when my parents said that to me (and i too hated hearing "because we said so") it was because - in their wisdom - they realized that nothing they said was going to change the way i felt.

    I really do believe that sometimes that is the right answer........

    I respect the fact that you are a concerned parent......... we could use a lot more like you..... :c:

    Rod
  19. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Moderator

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    By the way - for everyone involved...... i believe that there may be occassion where this might be OK...........

    Suppose someone went out and legally purchased 3 or 4 hundred dollars worth of music over the years....... and Joe Geedunk (the thief) steals his/her collection - would it then be ok to obtain copies - or should he/she be forced to buy them all over - and in essence wind up paying again to listen to something they had already purchased?

    I am interested in any and all comments.......

    Rod

    Sometimes things are tiny shades other than black and white.........
  20. pmolsonmus

    pmolsonmus Moderator

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    Hey Rod - AKA concerned Parent, :D
    I like the way you think. However, while I think that the person whose collection was stolen might feel justified morally and ethically, technically I don't think he has any legal standing (especially if he filed an insurance claim - then NO F'in WAY!!! He bought it once, it was stolen. Life sucks, file a claim, file it as a loss on your taxes, and his losses are covered. However, if he made a copy of those recordings beforehand and kept them out of the access of Joe CD thief, I think he's ok.
    I would advise that everyone with a valuable recording collection make a legal back-up of their collection for archival purposes. I'm pretty sure that this falls within the fair-use domain of copyright law, in fact, I purchased a CD duplicator just for this purpose. I couldn't afford to replace difficult to find recordings of valuable things I use in my classroom .I still want to allow students to listen to great music at home so its kind of necessary. It's a great tool and has really paid for itself in mimimizing lost, damaged or stolen Cds and I can sleep at night.
    Keep up the fight- this is becoming a great thread!
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