Would like opinions on potential STC of this design...

Discussion in 'Studio Construction & Acoustics Forum' started by eagle, Nov 12, 2004.

  1. eagle

    eagle Guest

    Howdy,

    Due to weight limitations, I could only use so much mass in my design. I feel that lack of mass is the weakest link in my plan here. But, it was either do what I could, or not have a studio room.

    Room is about 600 sq/ft overall, 11 ft average height ceiling (slanted ceiling). Room within room construction. Outer walls... 2X4 studs filled with 3.5" R-15 fiberglass batt insulation, then one layer of 3/4" plywood screwed to studs, one layer of 1/2" homasote (pressed paper "sound board") screwed down, and one layer of 1/2" sheetrock, screwed down. Then, the inner room frame is to be build with 2X4 studs, filled with 3.5" R-15 fiberglass batt insulation, and then just ONE layer of 5/8" sheetrock only! (I wish I could put more layers on this inner room wall, but I cannot add more weight than this.... everything is on the second story of a wood framed building). The one sheetrock layer of the inner wall will be spaced about 10 inches away from the outer wall all around. Inner room will be "floating", sitting on some strips of Sheetblok. Floor will be decked and floating on some U-boats. Floor will be decoupled from inner room walls. (Overall, the floor and ceiling have the same integrity as the walls described here.)

    This room is to be used to track drums. The goal is to keep the sound of the drums from reaching the outside of the building and disturbing the nearby neighbors in this very quiet neighborhood. I am already accepting that there WILL be some sound leakage to the outside, but I guess the concern is how much? Does anyone care to predict what the overall STC of this set-up might be, and predict how much drum sound will leak to the outside? I am hoping it will just be a "faint" sound of drums leaking to the outside, to the point where people inside neighboring houses (houses are about 30 feet away) will just barely hear it or better yet NOT hear it. But, I fear that I may wind up with a situation where the drums are still pretty darned loud outside. Wish I could know prior to completing this project. So far my outer room is essentially done, now about to start on the framing of the inner room.

    I am guessing that I will need to "deaden" the inside of the inner room once done to reduce resonances. I have always dreamed about having a nice "live" room to record in, but according to some things I have read, there will be less sound leakage to the outside if the inside of the room is "dead", as opposed to "live". I think I will need all the help I can get to keep the drums from leaking outside. For those of you who aren't familiar with acoustic drums, they are LOUD.... very high SPLs... like shotgun blasts. Sure wish I could have added more mass, but... this is the only room I have to work with, it's either this, or nothing. Any tips, comments, ideas etc appreciated. Thanks!
     
  2. avare

    avare

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    You are using a strange construction. Why?

    Using INSUL demo to try and get a rough guesstimate, an STC around 58 dB with the TL at 50 and 63 Hz around 20 dB.

    The low end of the drums will be quite audible. Midrange and higher will not.

    Andre
     
  3. eagle

    eagle Guest

    -----------------

    I have started with an existing structure that has serious weight limitations... second story of wood framed building. This has limited me in terms of how I'd prefer to design the construction of the room.

    Assuming that the construction I am using is the max weight that can be added, do you have a better suggestion as to how to construct? In otherwords, would you recommend different materials and design for the given weight limit? What might you suggest to improve my situation in terms of design?

    Thanks!!!
     
  4. avare

    avare

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    Put the material you currently have on the inside surface of the outside wall IN the wall, as per John's wall constructon technique detailed on RSD. Build the inside wall with steel studs to reduce weight. If the floor can take it with the steel studs' reduced weight, add a second layer of gypsum.

    BTW: it is confusing when at times you refer to the studio side as the outside and then the outside facing wall as the outside. Similarly in your wall description writing about parts neing "below."

    All we have to work with is your writing. Please make it as clear as possible.

    Andre
     
  5. eagle

    eagle Guest

    Thanks for the response... much appreciated. Sorry about my poor descriptions... I'll do better next time.

    I have considered using steel studs to save weight... but the problem unfortunately is that the inner room will have a 12 foot high ceiling peak, and also a 19 foot ceiling span. (Room is 19' X 30'.) So, I will be using 20 foot long 2"X8"s to hold up the ceiling. I certainly do not want any columns in the middle of the room. Unfortunately, with this particular frame, I don't think steel studs will work... simply not strong enough, plus I don't believe they make steel studs that are 20 feet long that can hold a bunch of sheetrock. I've never seen it anyway. This is why I have chosen wood. Yes, wood is heavy. I already went from wanting to use 12" centers to realizing that 16" centers would save me weight and thus would be better in this case.... etc.

    One knowledgeable person once told me that I am trying to do the impossible.... that the overall limits of my room make it extremely difficult if not impossible to achieve very high STCs... mainly due to the weight limits, size and the fact that it is on the second level of a wood frame. But, I am determined to do the best I can because it is the ONLY room I have.

    Regarding "John's wall technique on RSD"... I must have missed that... exactly what are you referring to, and where do I find it?

    Thanks!
     
  6. avare

    avare

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    The details that are coming out are frightening.

    You are afraid to put a second layer of gypsum because it will supported by the floor, not the top plates of the first floor wall yet you are going to support the 20' span ceiling from the same wall?

    Looking a the span table that I have handy, the maximum span for 2x8s with a 10/20 load is 17'2" using highest grade douglas fir.

    Have you had a structural engineer vet your design?

    Rod:

    I am feeling that your input would be great here!

    Andre
     
  7. eagle

    eagle Guest

    I am already factoring in that the inner room walls will be supporting the ceiling, which is why these walls will effectively be so heavy. I am not just worried about the sheetrock on the walls themselves, but also the sheetrock on the ceiling as well... the entire combined weight of the whole room, as it sits on the floor. I am looking at the psf load of the walls, WITH ceiling resting on top. Thus, if I go with 2 layers of sheetrock on the walls, it only makes sense to go with 2 layers of sheetrock on the ceiling as well... and thus the walls would not only be supporting the extra rock that is screwed to them, but also the extra amount on the ceiling as well. I'll add that I did beef up the frame of the outer room by adding dual 2X10s running under where the inner room walls will sit, and added a few extra columns directly below which stand on a concrete basement floor. So, the inner room does have some additional support. It's actually a bit more complicate, I'd really need to post some drawings... I will try to see if I can somehow do this next week.

    I was just about to do some calculations here regarding this subject. These 2X8s will have zero live load... in otherwords, there will be no one walking on top of them, no snow, etc... all they need to do is support however many layers of sheetrock I plan to put on them (and some R-19 batt insulation). That's all.. nothing more. So, I guess what I need to know is, how many psf of dead load can 20 foot long 2X8s handle when spaced on 16" centers? Maybe I need to space them on 12" centers to handle the load I will put? This is indeed another reason why I do not want to go with more than one layer of sheetrock. It's not like I haven't considered this factor. This is just another one of the "limitations" of this room situation. I can't think of any other way to frame this inner room (19 foot span ceiling), without either having columns, or altering the shape in such a way to rob a lot of cubic feet from the inside of the room. The frame I have designed allows for absolute maximum cubic feet inside the room, and allows the shape I want... with the one structural downside that I have a 19 foot span ceiling.

    At this stage, I do have the option of using 2X10s instead of 2X8s (for the ceiling span)... but if I use 2X10s, I will lose a few very valuable inches of ultimate ceiling height.. plus more overall weight too. I am hoping that 2X8s will do the trick, but I guess it will all depend on how many psf of load will need to be added. There are quite a few different factors that I am juggling here... and ultimately, the goal is to arrive at the best combination of everything.

    As far as getting a structural engineer to look at this... I have had two different architects and a framing constractor look at everything... I explained my plans, etc... none of them could give me any solid answers. This situation is ambiguous for various reasons. None of them felt that I could not do what I want to do, they felt it was all within reason, but they were all scratching their heads at the same time. This project seems to confuse the heck out of everyone. It's making me quite frustrated because all I want to do is record some music here and this room project is totally draining me. I just want to get it done.

    I sincerely appreciate your input. I would be very thankful if you (and others at this group) could see this thing through and give me as many ideas and opinions as possible. I will try to post some pics and/or drawings next week once I am able.

    Thank you!
     
  8. avare

    avare

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    Things are starting to come together. The more detail we have, the better. The drawings will help alot.

    What are the ambiguous factors? Perhaps if we start with those, we can clarify those and thus move the project on.

    With your last post, I fell much better. Several things came out that had me scared. They are resolved now.

    What is the construction of the current ceiling/roof? Perhaps double gypsum is not necesary on the ceiling. What is the construction of the neighbouring buildings and the distance to them?

    It may seem tedious, but good studios are 90% planning and 10% construction.

    Andre
     
  9. eagle

    eagle Guest

    Andre... I'll say it again, I sincerely appreciate your help here. I've actually been working on this room for several years now... on and off (due to scheduling issues)... but I really wish to get it done now within the next few months. I have sought educated opinions about the design and construction of this room over the past few years and have never actually found anyone that was either willing or able to offer any true helpful information... even the architects and framing contractor that I brought in. I had visited other studio construction newsgroups in the past (can't remember which ones now), and never got much useful info from those. Usually just guys bashing my ideas without offering solutions. It seems that you (and other people at this group) have a good attitude and good grip on this stuff and seem interested, so I am indeed very excited to hear your educated opinions and comments. In the next few days, I will make some drawings of everything and will create a webpage to hold the drawings... and will post a link here.

    The "outer room" is completed at this point. I feel I have done all I can with it, and the work is done. (Hopefully we do not determine that there are any extremely major problems with this outer room.) With the three layers attached to all walls, ceiling and floor (3/4 ply, homasote and 1/2 sheetrock), the outer room has stood up very well so far, even in almost 2 feet of snow load. No sagging or flexing observed, no creaking, no movement. The outer room (and building) seems to be pretty solid as is. But I do not want to press my luck by adding even more stuff on it (ceiling specifically)... unless the group feels that I could very safely do so. (Note... the weakest link in the outer room is the ceiling which is supported by the roof... drawings coming soon). But in sum, the outer room itself seems ok right now. So.....

    What I really wish to study at this point is the best way for me to deal with the inner room and "floating floor", trying to achieve the greatest STC possible while not causing the building to collapse from excessive weight. I guess I really need to just look at the proposed psf loads to be applied and determine if the outer shell (building foundation, etc) can safely handle it. Again, the trick here is to go with as much mass as possible for best STCs... seems that in order to really get things "optimum", I'd need to dial in the exact "maximum" amount of mass that can be tolerated... and that seems a bit tricky. It is always easier to stay on the "safe" side and go with less mass than what the limit is determined to be.... but then I may be robbing myself of much needed STCs... and if I cannot get enough STCs to happen, the room may turn out to be totally useless to me.

    Ok... drawings coming soon. THANK YOU!!!! :D

    eagle123@optonline.net
     
  10. avare

    avare

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    Great stuff that you just told us in your last post.

    A redirect here:

    STC is not suitable for addresing music isolation. Look at the actual TL curves of tested designs paying attention to what is going on from 50 to 100 Hz.

    These are big documents but they probably have usefull information for you:

    http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/irc/fulltext/nrcc46396/nrcc46396.pdf
    http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/irc/fulltext/ir811/ir811.pdf
    http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fulltext/ir761/
    http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/irc/fulltext/nrcc44764/nrcc44764.pdf

    Looking forward to the drawings so we can focus on the issues and avaoid communication problems.

    Andre
     
  11. Greetings

    I've been following this thread :)

    eagle, it would make it a LOT easier to read if you used smaller paragraphs :)


    Personally I think your in a situation where you gonna have to somethings calculated for you.

    On a ground floor it's a lot easier to GUESS how much Isolation you need, because their isn't any weight problems.

    btw - Any reason you can't use the ground floor of your place?

    but on an upper floor I think you're really gonna struggle silencing a drumkit. Particularly the kick drum. Unless you have a concrete upper floor, the whole wodden structure is gonna flex when that kick is hit, floating floor or not.

    And regarding floating floors, your gonna need a floating floor with a LOW resonant frequency to isolate a kick drum to any reeasonable degree. While you could float a wooden floor on SOLID GROUND and reasonably isolate a kick drum, I think you'd highly struggle to do this with a wooden floating floor on flexible wooden floor joists upstairs.


    And to be honest, you seem to be guessing on the amount of Isolation you'll need. And I know it's easy to overbuild becuase yuo dont' wanna get it wrong. A studio is a LONG TERM thing. I know that from my own build.

    I was lucky, I went for a ground floor studio, and overkilled the design by using SIX layers of drywall + 1 layer of MDF. 4" thick walls :)

    but you're upstairs.

    I think you should get an acoustician in, and actually do some tests.

    Play the drums while the acoustician uses his accurate SPL meter to measure levels inside the place, and outside at your neighbours location ( and possibly even inside yo8r neighbours house, if they'll let you ). This should be done both suring the day AND at night, as ambient levels change a lot throughout the day.

    The acoustician will then give you a pretty accurate picture of just HOW MUCH isolation you need.

    He'll cost you of course, but then he might save you from overspending on materials and labour you don't need, and worse prevent you from building something that collapses on someone and kills them.

    Just some thoughts :)


    Paul
     
  12. eagle

    eagle Guest

    http://64.35.28.172/studio-case-study.htm

    Thanks again for the informative replies!!!!! :cool:

    Ok... I created a webpage with diagrams and photos of my room (might take a few moments for all pics to load). I tried to include as much info as possible, but I suspect you may still have questions... fire away!

    I'm sure that after you read through my webpage, your first reaction will be that I am crazy, and that I should totally forget my current room and move into another location entirely... and you'd probably be mostly correct in this thinking. But, the fact is, this room is all I've got, and I cannot move. I must make the best of it, and do the very best I can regarding sound isolation to the outside. If I can't make this room work, then I am truly f*cked. :(

    I cannot use the basement of the house since the max height in the basement (concrete floor to joists) is less than 7 feet... after adding some flooring and a ceiling of some type, I'd have less than 6 feet of height... and I'm 6 feet tall!... no good. One person once recommended that I break the foundation floor and dig out the basement to increase height, etc, but that is not cost effective, would be extremely difficult. Plus the basement has already been built up for other purposes.

    You may also recommend that I use a garage bay for drum tracking, and that would actually be an excellent suggestion... but I cannot use any of the garage bays unfortunately. I am truly "stuck" with this one room as described on my webpage.

    The room itself is really nice, big, high ceiling, there's even a fully closed "sound-lock" area between this room and the rest of the house (just happened to be built that way - there is a bathroom, laundry room, hallway and stairwell that effectively create a 4 foot wide "sound-lock" from the other living areas.) This room is also at the exact opposite end of where the bedrooms are located. So, this room would be "perfect" as a drum tracking studio room if it weren't for the issue of sound leakage to the outside. Very frustrating indeed.

    Ok guys... it's a lot to look at, but I'd sure appreciate any and all comments, ideas, thoughts, opinions, answers to questions, etc. I really need to finish this thing off very soon, I am hoping to arrive at some solid conclusions as to what I can or cannot do with this room, and what I should or should not do with this room for maximum isolation. A lot is riding on this project for me... anyone who can help here will be a true studio construction hero! :D thanks!

    http://64.35.28.172/studio-case-study.htm
     
  13. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Moderator

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    Well I hate to be the "bearer of bad news"...... but you have already screwed yourself as far a the best possible isolation by covering the inside of the exterior shell as you have.

    Now you're stuck with a 3 leaf system - which can cost you 10 to 15 db of isolation (possibly more).

    If you want to make sense here - remove the inner layers from the outside walls.

    Install an additional layer of drywall (or 2) between the existing framing members and caulk the perimiter well of all the bays. Then insulate that and frame your interior walls. Insulate those and drywall, etc.

    The ceiling weight issue can be handled easily (and you can use 2x4's for the framing) by simply using isolation hangers to transfer the weight back to the existing floor/ceiling joist - yet you still gain the isolation you need.

    If your only concern is isolation from the outside world - and not the floor below (you said in your last post
    ) then the trick would be to forget your floating floor and carry your isolation through the lower floor wall assemblies - this way you lock it into the house - but with out isolation in the building itself.

    Let us know what you're really looking for.

    Rod
     
  14. z60611

    z60611

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    Rod
    How does he deal with the three garage doors down there? The ones I can see light under.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. He doesn't. If he wan'ts the garages to still be garages.


    Paul
     
  16. I just looked at the original ceiling....


    The rafters are drywalled right to the apex of the roof, while the collar ties also have a layer of drywall on them.

    With the inner room, this would make a FOUR LEAF structure in this area.


    Paul
     
  17. avare

    avare

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    Gret stuff with the al the detail in the website.


    Rod wrote:
    Z60611 expressed concern about the load on the floor system doing that. Not a big problem!

    Lower the ceiling in the garage to the bottom of the girders. Support the double gypsum with RSIC clips and fill the space with insulation. This will give an airspace 18" deep. Doing rough calculations in INSUL this system gives an STC of 55 and TL of 28dB@50 Hz. Remember STC is not the best for music isolation, so focus on the LF TLs. You could use hangers like Kinetics-noise ICW, which z60611 uses in his room.

    Minimal increase in weight. Extra layer of gypsum, RSICs and hat track, and insulation. Much less than any floating floor system.

    Please note: we were able to come up this because of all the detail you put into your website. Great stuff.

    As we make the walls (a floor is just a wall on its side) more insulated, sound will seek the weakest link. Those windows will become the weak point. More details on the windows please.

    You wrote on your website:
    Is that a foot to the edge of the joists from the inside of the outside wall or what? Knowing that there is an airgap of around a foot between the insde and outside walls helps tremendously with the sound isolation. Again the details are making it come together.

    You wrote that you are anxious to get this done. Remember good studio construction is 90% planning and 10% building. We are on the road with the planning!

    Feeling good;
    Andre
     
  18. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Moderator

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    Andre,

    I like this approach............ it works........

    STILL - this does not solve the problem that you are currently building yourself into...........

    All of these inner layers that you are installing right now are going to decrease (note - that is DECREASE) your isolation - NOT INCREASE IT.

    You need to rethink your entire approach if you really want this to work.

    Rod
     
  19. avare

    avare

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    Rod wrote:
    I did not mean to ignore or minimize what Rod wrote. He is completely correct. To show the effect of triple and quadruple leaves look at the bottom of:

    http://www.customaudio.freeserve.co.uk/articles/tloss.htm

    Note that walls 2 and 6 have the same mass, but one has 20 dB better isolation!

    Andre
     
  20. eagle

    eagle Guest

    Guys, thanks for the info and comments!

    Yes, I guess I am indeed "screwed" here. When I first set out to build this room about 4 or 5 years ago, I picked up a few books by F. Alton Everest, and studied them pretty hard. I finally walked away understanding the importance of mass, air space, etc... the main rules. But for the life of me, I do not ever remember reading about this "triple leaf" problem. I either totally missed it, or Everest did not mention it in the particluar books of his that I read. Are Everest's books considered good, or perhaps they are lacking in information or are inaccurate? Or is this triple leaf problem a more recent finding? Or am I just totally blind perhaps?

    I am indeed upset, because as I look at this whole situation, I do not think I will be able to undo the work that has been done so far and redo it. It would simply be too much extra time and money at this point. The inside of the outer wall is totally finished at this point. So... I guess I did a lot of work for nothing. :cry: Oh well...what else is new in the music business, right??? Same old story, one way or another.

    I do want to point out that the "inner room" leaf (that has yet to be built, that is if i even continue at this point) will be about 12" away from the outer wall. Andre, you mentioned that this was a good thing. I wonder how this ties into the whole triple leaf problem? Perhaps it makes things a little better than originally expected? Basically, leaf 1 (outer sheathing of house) will be 3.5" away from leaf 2... but then leaf 3 will be 12" away from leaf 2. I would think that there comes a point where if the leaves are far enough away from each other, the "triple leaf" effect may not be a problem...???

    Also... I do not have four leaves at any point... sheetrock does not go up to the peak of the roof... I will have "only" three leaves at all times.

    One thing to note... on the roof rafters, the air gap between leaf 1 and leaf 2 is 9.5". (Again, leaf 1 is the outermost layer of the house, and leaf 2 is the material screwed to the inside of the studs.) I'd like to think that 9.5" is a "decent" gap, and will allow the reduction in TL (due to 3-leaves) to be at a pretty low frequency. In that article regarding triple leaves, it mentiones that the greater the air gap, and/or the more mass, the lower the frequency at which the TL reduction occurs. So... I wonder if my roof air gap of 9.5" is considered pretty good, or is still way too small and thus a problem.

    On my outside walls however, the air gap between leaf 1 and leaf 2 is only 3.5"... which is small. But, I do have an opportuniy to add some more mass on these particular walls (leaf 2) without overtaxing the structure... I still have some sheetrock here that I need to get rid of... so I am wondering if it would be a good idea for me to add more mass to leaf 2, so that its performance more closely matches that of the roof system (which has the advantage of the greater air gap). This is a cheap and easy option, could be done in less than a day.

    Basically, I am thinking of how to make the best of the triple leaf situation.

    Ok... I know what you're thinking... why I am wasting time with "band-aid" ideas when the whole design is essentially a total mess and can never be "fixed". I dig it. I understand. But, as I mentioned before, I think I am pretty much stuck with my triple leaf set-up due to time and money issues. If you guys came here right now and stood in the room and looked around, you'd truly appreciate how much work would be involved to rip everything down now, and then, worse yet, put back the material BETWEEN the framing studs, which would take probably 5 times longer than adding it TO the studs.

    Plus, another issue... a big reason that I added 3/4" plywood TO the studs to begin with was to strengthen the frame of the house. The frame was originally VERY weak, the builders slopped through everything, the outer sheathing is terrible, etc., the walls literately used to "flap" in the wind like sails... lots of loud creaking noises, etc... was horrible. I think I would have had to have added something to the inside of the studs in any case, triple leaf or no triple leaf. (By the way, I DID first beef up the frame by shimming, adding deck screws, adding extra members, gluing, etc... but it still needed some good "sheathing" to stiffen it up.)

    What this all means is that I have the WRONG HOUSE! I guess, in a perfect world, I would have had to have REMOVED all the cedar shakes and outer sheathing from the outside of this room, then beefed up the frame and re-sheathed from the outside with some good thick stuff, and then I would have been able to have safely and comfortably added multiple layers of drywall BETWEEN the studs on the inside. Or better yet, I guess I could have simply added multiple layers of material to the OUTSIDE of the frame... then there would have been no need to add pieces between the studs from the inside. Then I could have enjoyed a two leaf system while having a beefed up frame.

    But, totally stripping the house completely down to the frame (walls, roof, etc) and rebuilding from scratch would have been a task beyond my time and financial limits anyway. Gee, we're almost at a point where it's easier to just build a brand new house.

    Finally, it IS important to me to have a studio room in my house, but this is indeed going to be just a "home project studio". I guess if my goal was to build a state of the ART commercial facility, then I'd be prepared to really go nuts and spend lots of money. But I can only go so "nuts" with this house project right now unfortunately.

    I still need to think about all this. I'm really kinda stuck here. I'll need to look over everything and figure out what I am able to or not able to do at this point to improve the situation. Yeah, I'd sure love to get rid of the triple leaf situation, but it just might not be possible.

    Regarding other details in your posts... I will get back to you guys again soon! Gotta run! Thanks!

    I greatly appreciate the info!!!
     
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