Thread: recording indian music trios

Hello all, and hello Kavi Alexander

Originally Posted by kavichandran

I have absolutly no objection to somone criticizing my work

While I'm not really planning to do that, allow me to repost what I posted over at gearslutz, in response to your comments posted by TeddyBullard, over there and here:

Originally Posted by Daniel

Quotes by kavi Alexander in blue italics

There are also many, many Indian EMI recordings that are truly superlative. Mostly it was the vinyl that was dismal (even this,they got it right at times!), but the recordings themselves, mostly were good and sometimes outstanding. Simple mike techniques and tube electronics did the trick.

Very true. Nikhil Banerjee's Jaunpuri/Mand LP (originally EASD 1378) is an excellent example, esp. the Tabla sound. I believe it's available on CD, but I don't know how well it's been transferred. I'd really like to know what mikes were used for that.

I have a Malika Arjun Mansoor recording that is at the top of the list.
I wonder which one he's referring to.


Some good recordings were also released on the Swedish label Amigo (two of Nikil Banerjee and one each of Amjad Ali Khan and Ram Narayan)
The Nikhil Banerjee and Amjad Ali Khan recordings are now available on CD on the Audiorec label (http://www.audiorec.co.uk). I wouldn't rate the (live) Nikhil Banerjee recordings so highly in technical terms, but the Amjad Ali Khan recording sounds very good. (it was also released by Sonodisc).


The German label Loft, amoung other titles, released an excellent double lp of the junior Dagar Brothers
IIRC, a fairly reverberant live recording from a church. Suits the music, though. Another one worth mentioning is a solo recording (absolutely solo, not even a Tanpura) of Hariprasad Chaurasia's flute. Shame that none of these have been released on CD.

The little I know, I learnt from listening to the recordings listed above and following carefully the works of the masters mentioned, who were my inspiration. To them I offer my gratitude.
Kavi Alexander..

What I find interesting is that the sound ideal of the (admittedly few) WLA Indian Music recordings I've heard seems to be quite different from the ones quoted above, all or most of which I believe to be multi-microphone close-miked setups, as opposed to the purist Blumlein setup used in WLA recordings. As far as my personal taste is concerned, one-point stereo techniques are not ideal for repertoire like Indian Classical Music. Earlier Nimbus recordings are good examples of what IMHO Indian Music should not sound like. I personally find close miking distinctly more suitable to this music in principle (even though there is also a good deal of potential for bad sound quality, of course...) and most of the recordings mentioned by Kavi Alexander follow this ideal (Nonesuch, EMI etc.). But that's just my opinion and this may not be the place to discuss it. In case anyone still wishes to do so, let me know.

I agree with your assessment of the recordings you've mentioned (and thank you for some detailed insight), but I wonder how this goes with your own recording philosophy, which is so strictly against multi-microphone setups. My sound ideal is more or less the opposite when it comes to Indian Music (not as far as western classical music is concerned, although I must admit I prefer small AB setups to coincident techniques...).

As far as Indian music is concerned, I'm all for close-miking, and I will elaborate, if there's any interest...

Regards,
Daniel

Since I am not very good with computers (the reason I stuck with analog!) and thus hate e-mails, prefering the phone, I shall answer the two who have posted questions, with this one post. First, yes, on "Kalyani" the violin IS amplified. This was the wish of the artist and I did not have much say, although I tried very, very hard. He did however, allow me to substitue the amp for a tube based unit. Of the four recordings I have released of Dr. L. Subramaniam (Electric Modes. Kalyani, Saraswathi and From the Ashes), only on "From the Ashes" did I manage to get him to play unamplifid. I had tried to borrow an Amati for this gig, but it did not work out. The fifth recording of Mani with V.G. Jog is also acoustic (for both artists) and is yet to be released.
The recordings mentioned, I belive were loosely "graded" (or at least identified) as good and great. You are of course free to disagree. I do not give a damn what you think. I did what I did, as a service to the members of this forum, to share relevent information. I did not submit the list for record review! Another reason for listing the Amigo LPs was in the spirit of being through and further, to let the members of this forum, who reside mostly in the West, to try and find same. I mean, where on earth are you going to find EMI LPs today in the West? The chances are far grater that you find an Amigo or Loftt LP, rather than an Indian EMI! Another reason was that the recordings done in the West (except the Gotuvadaym recording on Folkways), reguardless of sonics, were better pressed than most Indian EMIs.
I am very well aware that none of those listed as the ones I admire, recorded the way I do. So what? Who says that you can not learn from one who is a practitioner of the same art, but employs different pigments and or brush strokes? If you study with Nadia Boulanger you do not necessarily compose in the vain of Stravinsky! I learnt much from their work and they were my inspiration.
I enjoy good music. I do not care how the results were arrived at. If the music is of interest to me, the artists are of high caliber and the performence superletive, I buy the recording period.
If you would kindly e-mail me your phone number, I will gladly call you and answer all your questions, as to how I got the results I have obtained on my recordings. Please keep in mind that recording, as I see it, is an art. It is conjuring the spirit, a Tantric ritual. Ultimatly, you are not in control. Thus, I may not have the "fool proof", "iorn clad" answers!
May the music move you within... KAVI.

Kavi,

thanks for the reply.

Originally Posted by kavichandran

First, yes, on "Kalyani" the violin IS amplified. This was the wish of the artist and I did not have much say, although I tried very, very hard

Funny that he won't even record without amp...

The recordings mentioned, I belive were loosely "graded" (or at least identified) as good and great. You are of course free to disagree. I do not give a damn what you think.

Sure... But then, in fact I agree with you 99%, e.g. on the fact that some of the old EMI recordings are indeed very good, or concerning the Nonesuch ones (also Ram Narayan's recordings). By the way, which Mallikarjun Mansur recording were you referring to?

I did what I did, as a service to the members of this forum, to share relevent information.

And all I did was to add a bit of my own information to that...

Another reason for listing the Amigo LPs was in the spirit of being through and further, to let the members of this forum, who reside mostly in the West, to try and find same. I mean, where on earth are you going to find EMI LPs today in the West?

Nowadays, nowhere... And you hardly even find them in India anymore. Some shops in Southall may still have limited supply. And there are one or two specialised dealers in Europe that still have a few or occasionally offer some when a private collector sells his collection. (If anyone is interested, I can supply details). My own private collection consists of over 300 LPs of Indian Classical Music. No, I ain't selling... :D

The chances are far grater that you find an Amigo or Loftt LP,

I doubt it, I don't think Loft still exist. As for Amigo, I don't know. But as I mentioned, these recordings have been rereleased on CD (even though that may not be of interest to true audiophiles).

Another reason was that the recordings done in the West (except the Gotuvadaym recording on Folkways), reguardless of sonics, were better pressed than most Indian EMIs.

Just out of curiosity, would/do you still prefer mediocre EMI pressings to the corresponding CD releases?

I am very well aware that none of those listed as the ones I admire, recorded the way I do. So what? Who says that you can not learn from one who is a practitioner of the same art, but employs different pigments and or brush strokes?

Good point.

If you would kindly e-mail me your phone number, I will gladly call you and answer all your questions, as to how I got the results I have obtained on my recordings.

I will do so with pleasure. I'll fill out the feedback form on your website in a moment.

Best wishes,
Daniel

Dear Daniel, Some of the comments in my last post were intended for the other member interested in recording Karnatic trios. You too are wellcome to call me any time, if you wish.
When I lived in France/Swedan (1968 to 1981), I used to order LPs from The Indian Record House in South Hall. The person I delt with truly knew his stuff!
I simply do not listen to CDs, SACDs or DVD-As. Strictly LPs, no matter what the music. I weed out the truly bad pressings. I am not compulsive in wanting to have everything. I am not a CONSUMER. (There is a Sufi saying: "If you are a consumer, you WILL be consumed!). The way I see it, I rather have a few recordings, where all the elements come together, to induce bliss in the listener. After all, look at it this way: you are not going to see all the great works of art, hear all the great concerts, date all the lovely damsels and swim in every warm tropical sea in the moon light!
I am thankfull for the small miracles that come into my like... even if be only an Amigo LP of the second greatest sitarist.
Loftt may be defunct, but Peter Panke is certainly alive and well. This man deserves a lot of credit. A lot of great Indian music released in Germany, including the Loftt titles, came into being thanks to him. A student of Drupad, he was also a friend of Alain Danielou. Peter was kind enough to send me a very rare recording. When Danielou recorded the Dagar Brothers (Sr) in Berlin, which resulterd in the UNESCO LP mentioned by me, the tape ran out on the first Rag. Danielou gave a copy of this to Peter, before he passed away. In my will, this will go to the woman I love. (She better hurry up and show up at my door step soon!!!)
I shall be adding to my list soon. May you walk in the shadow of your mike stand(s)... KAVI.

Rfreez, I made a small error in my post answering your questions. "Sraswathi" too is all acoustics. I can not belive it was recorded 15 years ago! So, "Electric Modes" Vol 1 & 2 (Except Ragam Kapi which was done on Tim's one inch Studer C37, all other track were done on a 1/4 inch Ampex MR 70. The pre amp on these tracks (MR 70) too is different. A tube (employing the 7788 pentode, whereas Tim's was triode based) unit designed by another outstanding designer, Jeff Cook} and "Kalyani" were recorded with Mani playing an violin with a pick up fed into a tube amp. "Sraswathi", "From the Ashes" and the yet to be released Mani/Jog are all acoustic. Drones were a mix of Shruti Box (electric of course! no "petti"s here, no such luck!) and tanpuras. "Kalyani", "Saraswathi", "From the Ashes" and Mani/Jog were all recorded using the Tim/EAR tube chain.

Hello Kavi,,

Originally Posted by kavichandran

Dear Daniel, Some of the comments in my last post were intended for the other member interested in recording Karnatic trios. Y

Sorry if I misinterpreted that...

Loftt may be defunct, but Peter Panke is certainly alive and well. This man deserves a lot of credit. A lot of great Indian music released in Germany, including the Loftt titles, came into being thanks to him.

Another interesting detail... Or maybe I knew that and forgot... :D

Best wishes,
Daniel

Originally Posted by kavichandran

May you walk in the shadow of your mike stand(s)... KAVI.

Dear Kavi,

Many thanks to you for allowing me / us to bask in the shadows of your mike stands, from your many great recordings.
I've tried to emulate your values in my two channel ambient recordings for many years, to varying degrees of success.

I've recorded extensively within the Persian music community, working with the masters of Mysticism, and Sufiism, including many of the highest regarded masters,... Ostads M.R. Lotfi, Hossein Omoumi, Manoochehr Sadeghi, Sima Bina, as well as their contemporary proteges (the next ostads).
As you know, its not dissimilar to the Indian classical music, Carnatic Music.

I also record extensively in the western classical chamber music events in southern California.

Somehow, I'm blessed and accepted within these communities, and have recorded them live for many years now.
Every time I fly my mics in these circumstances, I've thought of Water Lily Acoustics, and your efforts.

Thanks for your input in this thread.

Mike French

long time live ambient recordist,......
DPA->
Grace->
sound devices

Dear Daniel, Do you know if German Harmonia Mundi did release any Indian/Persian/Arab classical music? Of course, French Harmonia Mundi did release some very fine recordings of Persian music.
In my first posting, I had forgotten to mention the Caprice two LP set from Sweden. Great cover, good sound and great tracks from masters such as Balachander and Bimsen Joshi amoung others. From Germany there was also the Museum Collection from Berlin. From this collection I have three LPs: A veea recording (the artist, a young woman, is competent but no more), a recording of sufi zikir from Sudan and the Crown jewel of then all, the Chinese Chin recording. The Chin, for me is up there with the Rudra Vina and the Surbahar. This recording was done with two AKG CK 1s feeding a Nagraa IV-S! This is a must have for the music (first and foremost) and the sound. Being German, a very good pressing too. (This LP was given to me as a gift by Henry Kaiser. God bless his heart and fingers! Henry also turned me onto sitarist Jaffar Ali Khan. I have three LPs of his on Indian EMI that are great.) The only other recording that I know for sure was done with only two mikes, is the East Greets East LP by Ravi Shankar. This is a Deutsche Grammophon release and the copy I have is a Japanese pressing. A photo on the gatefold shows two mikes spaced about a foot apart and are CMC 55s. Seems like it was recorded onto a Studer A80. There is the number two (two track?) after A80 followed by text in Japanese. There are also the letters JRC followed by Japanese text. A mixer perhaps? Maybe a typo and it should have read JVC?! Anyway, this recording ia a dud, neither the music nor the sound (big disapointment) are worth writing home about. I wish it had been otherwise.
Another rare jem I forgot to mention is on a lable called Concert Hall (!). It features Aminudin Dager (of the elder Dagar Brothers) singing with Farridudin Dagar! I think after his brother Mohinuddin passed away, Aminudin sang with his younger relative. (I have a solo recording of Aminudin Dagar on Indian EMI, which though swamped in reverb, is worth having for the performence, if not the sound) And on mirdanga is the regal Raja Chatrapathi, who on the color cover looks very dapper (as always!) with his waxed moustache!
More to come... KAVI.