Thread: Orchestra: The Final Frontier

First - It's about effing time!! 8)

Second - I'd personally be hesitant to place omnis that high. This may be part of the cause of the exaggerated percussion. Bear with me and I think you'll understand.

Imagine a triangle.

Point 1 is the microphone.
Point 2 is the front of the orchestra
Point 3 is the back of the orchestra

If you were to place the microphones (point 1) at the exact same place as the front of the orchestra, you've now got the largest delta that you can have as far as distance-to-point-2 and distance-to-point-3. In other words, the sound will be very deep as the sound from the violins will arrive immediately, but the sound from the trumpets will take perhaps as much as 25-30 ms to arrive (for a delta of roughly 25-30ms)

However, if you move the mics (point 1) up in a vertical plane to say 10 feet, the violin sounds will arrive at the mics at roughly 8.8ms but the trumpets will still take around 25 to 30 ms (let's assume 25 since I don't think the hall is that deep. This will account for roughly 30 feet of depth on the stage). Now your delta is only 17 ms. This makes the trumpets (and bones and percussion) sound much closer.

The higher you go, the smaller the delta (you'll never reach equality unless you move the mics over the orchestra.....you wouldn't do that!) which means the more compact the orchestra.

Listen in the hall. Are the percussion that loud in the hall? If so...there's not much you can do (shy of telling the conductor the percussion are too loud! Unless you know him/her and have a VERY good relationship with him/her, this is not a battle you want!)

I am very inclined to agree with you - if the hall sounds VERY good, omnis are (IMO) the best way to go. Spacing is critical, especially if they're to be the only pair. If they're not...you can afford a little sloppiness on the order of a few centimeters. If you're flying mics, this can be a MAJOR pain unless you have a ladder or a hydraulic lift. Even still, this can be a pain in the butt and this is why ORTF is almost always a "safer" bet. A well spaced ORTF has the luxury of several feet of front to back motion before it gets to sounding wrong. Otherwise, I'd call it varying degrees of right...

Honestly, I have not listened to your links since I'm on a laptop right now and this would not be a good place to listen.

My only advice (blind, err...deaf) would be to consider lowering the main pair a few feet and consider angling them downwards into the orchestra. Try to make it so as much of the orchestra is on-axis or within 15 degrees as possible.

Also, I find the distance and the spacing to be a tad different than normal. Normally, with omnis in a good hall, I would go back at least 4 to 5 feet, maybe as much as 10 (given the depth of the hall). I understand the size restriction on the hall driving your choice, but in this case, I would strongly urge going with an ORTF pair with omni flanks. The 40 cm spacing seems as though it's also driven by your close placement. Generally, this is relatively narrow for a solo AB pair for orchestra.

The nice thing about the ORTF with omni flanks is:
1 - ORTF is a good deal safer than AB and is more tolerant of non-perfect halls.
2 - Distance is a little less critical
3 - The omni flanks can be brought in as much or as little as you'd like to add that width and breadth that you mention (and do it quite effectively).

With a hall that size, I would assume that the natural reverb of a full orchestra is a little top heavy. The ORTF/Flank combo will do a little to tame this and will allow you to add a slightly more appropriate reverb in post.

Of course, you'll definitely want more than a foot distance from the back of the conductor with ORTF. 7 to 10 feet would be a good starting point.

I'll listen to the samples in a bit and provide additional feedback if required.

Good luck!!!!!!!

J

Oh...congrats on the appointment!!

That's interesting what you say about the height. I've read a lot of articles... interviews with some of the big names in orchestral recording, and the lowest height I encountered was 9', the highest being 12'. I wonder how low you're talking? I also wonder what else it's going to change. Oh well, only one way to find out. I'll be trying it tomorrow. I think I'll keep working with the omnis at the same time as the ORTF. I hate to give up on the omnis since they sound so damned good, but where they need to be will probably sound a bit too ambient. I'll see if I can somehow find a compromise.

Thanks a bunch for the great info, Jeremy!

With the distance behind the conductor you're working with...12 feet, 11 feet...too high.

If there were a good 8 feet distance, 12 feet may be very appropriate.

I find that the height issue is just as critical with AB as distance. Most people throw their stands to a pre-set height (pre-set in their brains) and then adjust forward and back. I think this is a grave mistake.

Height is a MAJOR factor and must be considered with every ensemble in every situation.

While it's critical in all positions, I find it particularly critical in AB and Blumlein the most.

Cheers-

J.

I decided to cling to the omnis and went with a pair of M-149, spaced 60 cm, and only 8' high (down from 11' in the previous examples). Boy was that a learning experience. First, a rule that I already knew but has now been driven home: Just because two mics have the same polar pattern does NOT mean they will present the same reverb levels at the same position. The Neumanns were hopelessly wet at the same distance (different height, mind you) that the CMC62 were IMO just right. I wonder if you can abstract this to say that a Braunmühl/Weber capsule will generally be wetter than a fixed omni? Hmmm...

The second thing I learned was that height really is a MAJOR factor in orchestral recording. Holy God, did the balance change. Eight feet did tame the percussion, but the winds lost all focus and the strings may have been a bit too much. If you listen to the very first MP3 I posted, I think you'll find that the winds are excellent, but in the third MP3 the percussion is too much, not to mention what happens in the much more active sections of the Suite.

The third thing that I need to learn but am having difficulty with are the parameters that are controlled by width of the central AB pair. In going from the Schoeps at 38 cm to the Neumanns at 60 cm, I noticed a breakdown of the imaging. The winds were everywhere and it was completely unacceptable. Of course this is an elementary parameter. What I'm not sure of is what other aspects change due to spacing. Any insight here?

Next time I will try the ORTF along with the omnis (didn't have the facility this time), but I really do think I can make the omnis work.

In listening to the first three examples, do you think I would be better off if I has used MK2H or MK2S caps? Not that I have them, but I do have a 4006 pair. I love the warmth and softness of the MK2, but I wonder if I could get closer to the status quo with more high end.

Concerning spots, there are some things I'd like to hear more of. First, I never really hear that bright edge from any of the brass. They are crammed in the back right corner, right up against two walls, on risers. Might I want to put something in front of them, fairly low, to get some brilliance? Please see the third MP3 at the top of the page for a reference. The viola section is really pitiful... they aren't great players (are they ever?), and there aren't enough of them. Would you try to do anything about it? 'm not sure I want an artificially amplified bad viola section, but the lines don't always come out. This same thing goes for celli. There are just too few. The director thinks a bass spot is needed, though this is based on a recording with no outriggers. I'll probably do it just to make him feel good. Any favorite method of doing this? I also wouldn't mind getting some articulation on timpani. Agree? Harp is weak too, but it's not that big of a player. Spot it anyway?

The last thing I'm wondering about now is the use of my flanking mics. This time, I went with an 8' height, and I spaced them only 240 cm on either side of the center stand. This put them just behind the first chair violin on the left and viola on the right. Do you think I should go wider, to center them on the string sections that they're picking up? Also, I have this idea to get as much string sound as I can while minimizing everything else. Is this wise? To do this, should I stay low with these mics? Of course it affects the tone of the instruments, but for better or worse I'm not sure. If anybody has time, I'd love it if someone would take a quick listen to these examples featuring just the outriggers at the positions described above and tell me what you'd like to hear out of them that you're not hearing already.


Thanks a million as always.

Originally Posted by David French

height really is a MAJOR factor in orchestral recording. Holy God, did the balance change. Eight feet did tame the percussion, but the winds lost all focus and the strings may have been a bit too much.

Even an inch can have a profound effect in front to back balance. It pays to hustle on and off stage during rehearsal (as many times as necessary) to nudge the mics to just the right hight.

Originally Posted by David French

am having difficulty with are the parameters that are controlled by width of the central AB pair. In going from the Schoeps at 38 cm to the Neumanns at 60 cm, I noticed a breakdown of the imaging. The winds were everywhere and it was completely unacceptable. Of course this is an elementary parameter. What I'm not sure of is what other aspects change due to spacing.\

Investigate interaural time delay and quarter wavelength comb filtering as a function of capsule distance. Width of ensemble also enters in to capsule spacing: the entire orchestra needs to be covered which often conflicts with imaging goals.

A couple things...

Yes, a Braunmühl/Weber capsule does have it's quirkiness, especially in relation to wet/dry ratios compared to a single capsule. Think about its construction and how it obtains its omni pattern. It's merely 2 cardioid mics placed back to back with the phases at a constant. Whereas the rear lobe of a true omni is slighly (to noticably) attenuated (in the HF), the rear lobe of a dual diaphragm is not.

Second, as Zilla points out, even an inch of height can make a difference. Changing 3 feet will completely alter the orchestra. Try smaller intervals. The few orchestras that I do in VERY nice halls generally do not require much more than 8 feet (above stage level), but in those cases, the brass are slightly elevated and the acoustics are darned near perfect. Maybe a little more height would be prudent...perhaps 10 or 9 feet or in between.

Also, the MK2 caps you used...are they the straight MK2s? I had assumed that you were referring to the MK2s or the MK2h which is why I made recommendations to moving a little further out. In that case, yes the MK2s would be (IMO) a better choice allowing for a considerable bit more distance but still retaining the characteristic depth and reach of the Schoeps.

In regards to the spacing...the Schoeps have a great deal more latitude when it comes to spacing. The Neumanns summed omni pattern is not ideal off axis and tends to collapse if spread even a little too far apart. The Schoeps are not plagued by this. You can generally get up to 90 cm with the Schoeps (again depending upon the size of the orchestra, distance to the orchestra and size of the hall) without major "hole in the middle" syndrome.

In regards to spots. My general rule of is that I don't like to use them and if I do, I barely use them. Spot on harp, bass, timp, brass...it's starting to sound a little too complicated. You'll never be able to time align those all correctly and the orchestra will begin to compress in depth (trumpets sitting right next to violins).

The bad news is.....you have to work with the orchestra you're given. No amount of spot microphones will turn the orchestra into the LA Phil. Sometimes conductors understand this and sometimes they don't. The ones that don't get this will probably not like your work. You'll lose them as clients, but 2 years from now when everybody else's work sounds like crap, they'll be back to you. (Or they'll buy their own gear and assume that they can do it better with little to no experience and a $1500 credit limit at Guitar Center...that's another topic all together.)

The conductors that understand this will hear the difference between a well-mic'ed orchestra and an over miced orchestra. These are the guys you want to impress since they're the ones that keep their jobs in front of the orchestras.

If the aforementioned sections truly are weak on the recording and this can't be fixed with main or aux array placement, then yes, I might reach for a judicious spot mic. A time aligned pair over brass and/or woodwinds (never 2 pair - either 1 pair covering 1 or both sections), maybe one on timp (rarely) and maybe on the harp. I would not try spot micing the string section to try to coax more from them. You'll only worsen the problems already there.

As for the flanks...yes, 6 feet off center is a tad close. For "lesser than good" orchestras, it may be scary to put the flanks over 3rd or 4th row violins or celli, but it's often necessary to capture the width of the hall.

Besides, the flanks should not be that close to the orchestra as to be able to pick up individual players. Depending upon the hall, my flanks sit 8 feet or more back from the lip of the stage. Often, if it's a good hall, I'll go even further back to as much as the 1/3 distance in the hall.

One more note....I wouldn't state anything negative about your clients on this board. I did that one time in the past and that client happened to read this board occassionally.

I lost business. (a lot of it. 6 to 8 concerts yearly with disc sales included....perhaps $5K of annual budget.)

Just be cautious. Our job is to record. We can laugh at some of our clients, but it's best to do so in the privacy of one's home or studio.

Cheers-

Jeremy

Congrats on the new appointment, Davd!

Excellent posts, Jeremy, esp what you just said about conductors and clients not understanding the difference between multiple mics, etc.

I spot almost the same way, in a similar order of importance: soloists, harp, bass, tymp, brass, etc. (Some people wonder why I'd spot mic something as loud as a tymp, but the tymp player knows that I'm looking for the detail of the mallet hitting the head, NOT nec. the boominess underneath it...that stuff just bleeds everywhere else anyway, and falls under "Bass management".)

I had a recent big orchestral setting where the entire brass section was spread out in one long line from left to right, along the back row of the orchestra. The winds were all in a similar line directly in front of them. About 25-6 players in all. (How the HELL does one spot mic sections this way, eh?) Of course, there was no point (unless I wanted to break out 12 or 13 mics and do them all in pairs....shudder...) Of course, my front mic's (stereo pair & omni flanks) handled the orchestral blend much better anyway, and when we mix, we'll be working with the balance the conductor established.

If you DO have some room and there seems to be a need for spot mic'ing the brass individually or as a section, try some ribbons if you have any available. I had an orchestral recording session back in April with a 90 piece orchestra, and was able to spot the lower brass section with my AEA R84. What a GREAT sound!

For spots, I'm always looking to get just the tiniest bit of detail when mixing, vs. going for overall level. Sometimes I have to chuckle at what I went through in putting up a mic, running a cable, dedicating a track for over 2 hrs of recording, etc., only to find I've used the tiniest bit of detail to make something sparkle or shine a bit more than the rest. (Harp solos come to mind, ditto for tymp mics, etc.)

Of course, if the front mics are all properly positioned, and the orchestra is doing their job in a good hall, the spots don't even go up. I don't mind that at all!