future of recording engineer?

[Thomas W. Bethel]

I think Audio Graff has some very good points.

I guess it all comes down to what YOU want to do.

There are lots of really good, reasonably priced recording studios around that can do a very good job of recording you. Then you could do the mix yourself (if you have the time and think you have the skills) or have the studio do the mixdown as well. As Audio Graff pointed out the mixing is somewhat simpler than the recording but still should be done by someone with really good technical and musical chops.

If you chose this approach of DIY it would mean that you would have to have some equipment and one problem is that the cost of outboard equipment such as limiters, compressors, reverbs and gates can get expensive very quickly especially if they are "pro" quality not to mention the console and the monitors. You could also get something like the Tascam, Mackie or Roland all in one consoles with everything built in but again these are not cheap and then you have to have good monitors and a good acoustically designed room to use them in.

It is up to you but I think using a recording studio makes the most sense.

One thing that I would do is shop around and find a studio that you feel comfortable in and has a history of doing the type of music you do. There is nothing more terrible than having an acoustic musician trying to work with an engineer that only does heavy metal work. It is a disaster.

Most albums in this neck of the woods come in at about $2200.00 recorded and mixed. If you are comfortable with that figure you could do approximately 5 recording for what you are going to spend on equipment and the room.

I can tell you from experience you cannot be a recording engineer and a performer at the same time so you may have to add to that the services of an independent engineer to record you in your own space which will again run up the cost(s)

Another idea is to hire an independent recording engineer with his own equipment to come in and do the recording for you while you play. There are a couple of services like that around here and one is run by two firemen that do this part time and have a van that they have completely equipped with a very nice setup. They are both musicians and have spent a lot of time and a lot of money to be able to provide this service. There maybe something like this in your area. The problems that they run into with this service may or may not be something that you have to contend with. The two biggest problems they have to solve with every recording is "house noises" and acoustics.

Hope all this helps.

Let us know how things are proceeding

[ILOVESOUND]

Ahhhhh! You're flipping my world upside down It's a good thing though. Thanks! It really makes me think about where I should put my money.

You mentioned the tracking being the toughest part. That's interesting to know. I always thought the mixing and mastering were the steps that took the most expertise. I guess the initial appeal of getting my own gear was that I could take time with vocals and guitar and that if the other instruments were overdubbed in a real studio and everything was mixed and mastered professionally, I could get fairly good results.

I feel like I have a decent understanding of mic placement. Setting appropriate input levels between pre, compressor, converter, etc. is something I need to learn more about. But to get the basics down, does it take a real long time? The other piece would be room treatment. So, I'll give it some serious thought. I'm in the process of selling a violin which would buy me a pretty sweet set up. Maybe I'll take some of that $ to a studio and track a few songs to see if it gives me the results I'm after. Thanks so much!

Derek

[RecorderMan]

Well most of this thread has been about the hobby of recording.

One cannot raise kids, pay for a house, etc (especially near LA) working on "records" for hobbiest's. Sorry, that's not meant as a disparaging term....just a truthfull description from where I sit. And "gear" is no more than empty tools...hell a $1500-a-day room is shit if you can't work it.


The "system" by which all the greats that are mentioned all the time is gone. They don't teach recording engineering at any school. It's a craft you lear over time. You learn a lot if your lucky to work with others that did the same before you...you end up standing on the shoulders of Giants.

So...where is recording engineering going?

Well it's truelly the worst it has ever been. period. end of story.

Oh...and recording is pretty easy once you know how. Getting their is often long and tough. Aks Lindsey Buckingham. He recorded a good portion of his last Fleetwood Mac record. Or Robbie Robertson, or Skunk Baxter. All these guys cut a majotity of they're own tracks....of course they's sound better if they used me more...LOL.


Accountng would be a perfect day job with recording as a second income.

[Thomas W. Bethel]

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
Well most of this thread has been about the hobby of recording.

One cannot raise kids, pay for a house, etc (especially near LA) working on "records" for hobbiest's. Sorry, that's not meant as a disparaging term....just a truthful description from where I sit. And "gear" is no more than empty tools...hell a $1500-a-day room is shit if you can't work it.


The "system" by which all the greats that are mentioned all the time is gone. They don't teach recording engineering at any school. It's a craft you lear over time. You learn a lot if your lucky to work with others that did the same before you...you end up standing on the shoulders of Giants.

So...where is recording engineering going?

Well it's truly the worst it has ever been. period. end of story.

Oh...and recording is pretty easy once you know how. Getting their is often long and tough. Aks Lindsey Buckingham. He recorded a good portion of his last Fleetwood Mac record. Or Robbie Robertson, or Skunk Baxter. All these guys cut a majority of they're own tracks....of course they'd sound better if they used me more...LOL.


Accounting would be a perfect day job with recording as a second income.

I think today many people want to do their own recording for monetary reasons. They convince themselves (with help from their local music store salesman) that it is cheaper to do it themselves in their bedroom or basement. If you listen to the salesmen in places like Guitar Center and Sam Ash they will convince you that by spending the money up front you will somehow come out further ahead in the long run. Their job is to sell equipment and their commission check at the end of the month testifies as to how well they have done their job.

I continue to be amazed at how someone in their own mind can justify spending $10,000 on equipment for a studio that they will use to record their band when the don't spend any money on the acoustics or they staple egg crates to the walls thinking that they have solved all the acoustical problems in the room.

The average recording that I master cost the band about $2200 to record at a local recording studio. This is an average. If you do the math you can see that you could do 5 records with a good studio for what it costs to equip a "home studio" with good equipment.

Also people think that by buying something like a Roland all in one unit that they have harnessed the power of a full recording studio in one box which is NOT THE CASE. They also fail to understand that by plunking down their $$$ you are buying the equipment PERIOD and now you have take the time to learn how to use it and it is only have after a lot of time that you will really learn how to use it well. Even after you learn to use it fully the ROLAND was never meant to be a full blown recording studio it was meant to be a scratch pad so you could get down your ideas before heading out to the studio to do the real recording. How people went from using it as a scratch pad for ideas to using it as their main audio recording platform is beyond me. The compression scheme that the Roland uses is a joke and it uses bit stealing techniques to make it all work so sometimes your effects are 16 bit but sometimes they may only be 12 or 8 bits depending on the number of effects and the number of tracks you are trying to record. For what it was intended to do it works fine for use as the final recording platform it is a joke.

The only ones getting rich on making everyone their own recording engineers are the people that sell equipment. They have massive campaigns to convince the average musician that they can be a recording engineer, mastering engineer and can do it all without involving anyone else in the process.

You mention a couple of musicians that are doing their own thing when it comes to recording. I would venture to say they are not doing it with Rolands and that someone has designed all the equipment to work together and they are doing their recording in acoustically designed spaces and that they have someone, who is a professional, come in and taught them how to use the equipment properly and may even employ that person on an "as needed" basis to come in a maintain the equipment and even to be there for sessions when the equipment is being used or maybe even acting as an engineer during the tracking sessions.

As Mark Twain once remarked "if you put a bunch of monkeys in a room with typewriters they could eventually come up with all the works of Shakespeare" what he did not say is how long it would take and who would do the final compellations of those works. Yes you can do your own recording but WHY?

FWIW....

[maintiger]

[quote]Originally posted by Thomas W. Bethel:

As Mark Twain once remarked "if you put a bunch of monkeys in a room with typewriters they could eventually come up with all the works of Shakespeare" what he did not say is how long it would take and who would do the final compellations of those works. Yes you can do your own recording but WHY?

FWIW....

Let me try to answer the WHY? from my own personal perspective- Everyone is different, of course, so the answer is not universal- I can only tell my story and people can or won't relate-

I have always been a prolific singer-songwriter- in fact, I have written hundreds of songs- Because of my life circumstances I have not been able to make it a full time career- If I could only go back in time things would be different but that's neither here nor there-

I was always drawn to recording, first to reel to reel, then to portastudios when they came around- but first and only was to work on my songs, not to do recording of other people's stuff. That's just the way its always been. period.

I have recorded in other people's studio but the experience has never been totally gratifying- maybe if I had had a great producer and budget it would have been different. Probaby so.

I finally after recording for many years decided to open my own commercial studio- Eventhough I learned a lotta stuff, I found that my energy was being used by working on other people's tracks and I had no juice left to work on my own stuff, whic was the reason why I opened the place in the first place!

So, after two long years of operations I sold my studio and paid off some of my debts amd used a portion of the money to set up a studio of my own at home- Now I have a decent day job and I am happy as a clam working on my tracks at home, plus I have a new band I'm gigging with-

Not that everuting is perfect- I hope to soon be able to give up my day job and work on my music full time- I keep plugging away and will get there- Heck, the name of my band its "It Ain't Over" That's just the way I feel-

So, to answe your question WHY? is BECAUSE I LOVE IT! Its what I must do, work on my tracks, record my song, get my sound- I am working of mixing a CD of the tracks I cut with my band at the Lord Tiger Studio I owned- hopefully I can post some of my stuff within a month or two and see how yoiu guys llike it- Meanwhile, I'm working on new tracks at my new studion with my band, plus working on a demo for a new musical me and one of my partners wrote- I recently also completed a demo for an independent film I hope to get- Many things going on, many projects, all of the stuff I write- and that's the way I like it!


So, I can't speak for everybody out there, but that's my WHY :D :D

[Thomas W. Bethel]

MainTiger,

There is one BIG difference in what you are doing and what others are trying to do. You PAID your dues and learned what you needed to so you could do a good job. Many others buy a ton of equipment and then just don't take the time to learn to use it. They decide to make some money and open a studio (usually because their significant other says they either make some money or else...) and so yet another recording studio opens with a person doing the recording not really knowing what they are doing and so people recording there are not impressed and don't find it a worthwhile endeavor so they decide to open their own studio where they can be creative and the cycle repeats itself ad nausium.

Hope you are having fun. Sounds like what you are doing is fulfilling and worthwhile so what else could you ask for.

[maintiger]

Thank you for your kind words, Tom. I am indeed 'avin' a lotta fun! How did you yourself get in this crazy business? Would love to hear your story. :D

[ILOVESOUND]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thomas W. Bethel:

Most albums in this neck of the woods come in at about $2200.00 recorded and mixed. If you are comfortable with that figure you could do approximately 5 recording for what you are going to spend on equipment and the room.

Really? A very experienced studio that is reasonably priced compared to others I've checked into in my neck of the woods offers $6000 for 7 lock out days (trking, mxng, mstrng, + 1000 cds)

This of course doesn't include the musicians which would probably be another $2,000 (drums, bass, keys, string, etc). I'm talking full 10-13 song album. If I thought it would only cost me $2,200 - $3,200 to do a full proffessional album I'd race into the studio in a heart beat. But 7 lockout days doesn't even seem like enough when we're talking about the whole process from start to finish.

I did a full album with someone who charged $20/hr and had a little studio out of his basement. I spent a LOT of time on it and it turned out crappy. He didn't know much more than I did, and at that time I knew next to nothing.

I competely hear what everyone is saying about if you want pro results, you need to go to a pro. I keep coming back to the fact that for my situation, I want to record vocals and acoustic guitar myself and leave all of the rest up to the pros. I plan to treat my room and take time to get to know the gear, however (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't seem like it would take as much time to learn how to do a decent job with vocals. Acoustic guitar is a little trickier, but even still, seems do-able in the context of a full band sound as opposed to a solo acoustic guitar album or something. It seems that getting a good drum and bass sound combo is the most difficult and takes the most experience and best sounding room. Also, pianos, strings, and other acoustic instruments I'll leave up tothe pros. All the mixing and mastering would be done by pros.

So, why spend $10,000 on gear when I'm only going to do vocals and some acoustic guitar and then spend another $6000 on studio time? I figure I can:

a - learn a lot from going through the first 1/2 of the process in a pro studio (this would be my first major album)

b - take my time getting vocals and guitar just right and in the comfort and low pressure of my own home

c - record my own high quality demos

d - make a little money doing basic demos for others who aren't doing a full album or need a seasoned pro, just need to get their ideas down.

e - eventually do full albums of my stuff or other people's

Will I ever make the $10,000 up in saving on studio time, other people's projects, and cd sales? I don't know, that's a lot of dough. However, I don't need to make up the money right away, so even if it takes 10 years for the gear to pay for itself so to speak anything I make from there on out is extra. Plus, I'll have had the gear and thus the opportunity to have learned a great deal in that time. I'm I decieving myself? I hope not. Are there risks? Of course. Is it worth spending $10,000 to find out whether or not I'll end up sucking as an engineer? If you love the process of learning and love music, I think it can be worth it. ARe you sick and tired of reading my conversation with myself? Don't answer

Derek

[sosayu2]

i have a really reasonbly priced studio here in manhattan. i get a lot of people who want to do a whole project soup to nuts and also get a lot of people who need the room for drums, guitars, vocals, piano etc..... and then want to bring it home to mix themselves.....7 out of ten times they come back to mix it. what does this all mean? who knows. yes the reasons are monetary and sometimes a good salesman will convince them they can do it themselves. i've built a lot of home studios and then wound up having to go back and engineer, after they see how much work is involved in setting up, getting the sounds, checking the levels and so on and so on they get bored or frustrated. they thought engineering meant pushing a couple of faders sometimes. yes, i charge more than a home studio and low rate Pro Tools room. but after the client sees how quickly things get done they've actually spent less then they did at the cheaper place. i know i'm rambling and i apologize but to me this business is about people. all going for the same goal....creating some really cool music and sounds and having a good time doing it. you can't get that working at home alone you need to feed off of one another and then the ideas start to fly andshit really starts to happen. i long for the good old days before automation when there were five pairs of hands on the board creating one mix. those old records still hold up today and todays stuff doesn't even come close even though it's technically perfect, there's just no feel for the most part. " last part of that is just my opinion"

peace
frank

[Thomas W. Bethel]

ILOVESOUND

What ever feels best for you I would do.

I know a lot of musicians that have a small studio in their house to try out ideas and to do some tracking that they later can take to a pro studio for inclusion in their next album and this approach works GREAT.

I also know a couple of musicians that have gone out and purchased $10,000 + of equipment and it either sits in the basement or they use it sometimes to "play around with". That is a lot of money to be sitting in a corner so you can "play with it" when the mood hits.

Many times these are the same musicians that are at Guitar Center all the time looking for the new GIZMO that will allow them to sound like (insert name of famous artist) or that will give them the "edge". They buy the latest processors or keyboards or outboard gear in an attempt to make them sound good or sound like someone else.

What they don't admit to themselves is that they are not the musicians that they think they are and buying all this gear to make them sound like they are is simply a waste of money. If they spent more time learning how to play and listening to what others have done would me a lot more productive and a lot less costly.

It is not the gear or the software or the latest high tech strings for your guitar that make you good. It is what is inside of you and what you bring to the music. Why try to play like (insert name of famous musician) when you can chart new territory and maybe actually play better than (insert name of famous musician)?

The other thing that some people don't understand is that (insert name of famous musician) is getting paid for using a (insert name of product) and he or she may not even own one or may have used it when they were in a studio somewhere sometime but now they are being paid to say it is GREAT.

If you look at the popular magazines you see famous people saying all kinds of great things about a variety of products. Bruce Sweiden must have tried every product on the block because he is always pushing something different. He is a great recording engineer and has produced many million selling albums so he is a hot commodity when it comes to endorsing pro audio products. Maybe he does use them all maybe not but if you go out an purchase some piece of equipment in the vain attempt to sound like he recorded your material it is just not going to happen. One new microphone or one new set of strings is not going to take your poorly recorded poorly produced CD and make it a million seller. It just doesn't happen that way.

Ok enough of the soap box. Hope you are happy doing what you are doing and best of luck!