What is it exactly that we are selling anyways?

[Bob Olhsson]

I'll never forget discovering that when "Thriller" became the largest selling album of all time we figured out that less than ten percent of the people who buy at least one album a month had bought it. If it had been a toothpaste, it would have been considered a miserable failure in the marketplace!

The concept of a "mass audience" for music is a myth. So is the concept of a media mogul who determines which artists are going to become pop-stars.

[audiowkstation]

Prv. Post...
I'll never forget discovering that when "Thriller" became the largest selling album of all time we figured out that less than ten percent of the people who buy at least one album a month had bought it.
Okay....
Curious what source that was obtained from in a World wide demographic. Granted, not everyone that buys , owns "Thriller". I would place a solid bet that everyone that buys, 50% has heard "Thriller". Still curious which poll.

Next...


If it had been a toothpaste, it would have been considered a miserable failure in the marketplace!

Reply..
True, not everyone that purchases music would be interested in Michael Jackson, or possbily below ).1% of buyers of the album even know or care that Bruce Mixed it.

Next..
The concept of a "mass audience" for music is a myth.

Reply:
Again true to a point. I still say that "armpit farts" on MTV or recorded media 10 or more plays per day will produce serious numbers in the Music Biz.

Post:

So is the concept of a media mogul who determines which artists are going to become pop-stars.

Reply:

Not a Media Mongul...but the team.

Public buys because it is in their face. Culture that thinks it is hip (no matter if it is) will buy because of peer to peer relationship. A damn nice looking Female is met in a bar by a 22 year old with a 50K income and said Female says...do you have So and So ...while riding in the car, going on first date...you better believe if he does not have that music..the entire catalog will be purchased by next date, researched on the web...etc.
I really do know what goes on with Promo budgets. Seen them, know that it is decided what get's on ...what does not. Why is it that you can take a certain mix you have done and play it for anyone and even if you just met them they say they would buy it now? The reason they have not is because it is not exposed to the cultural mix for the demographic targeted. Try to by a brand new 1996 Mercedes. You can't. They were all sold. Put it out there, it will sell. It is a commodity. Market the product, give samples, it will sell. How many times has Hickory Farms in the past (have not seen a Hickory farms in years) presented a sample of something and you go inside and buy said product, plus $20 or more dollars of product that has samples out there to taste?

The concept is exposure.

I have recordings that I would bet 75% acceptance. We shall never know, unless it is marketed, exposed and put where folks can purchase the product easily...with word of mouth exposure by the mainstream. No one has that level of coverage. The general public just wants acceptance and possibly to get laid. A huge percentage of crap that guy's buy in the 14 to 26 year old range is the mainstreme...girls too..but only because their "friend" will think it is cool...even if they think it stinks. Remember all the Hall and Oats that sold? I knew my dates would get all moist if I played the latest release on a date. I could have given a rats ass.

You want to make money...exposure.

I am still Hip on seeing just a few thousand sales of a product...for maximum profit..and many of those avalible. Classical recordings account for a very small percentage of record sales. Why are they being done? Buyers.

[Bob Olhsson]

In my book the word "exposure" raises almost as quick a red-flag as the word "potential." Both are right up there with "fix it in the mix" and "check's in the mail."

Exposure is really pretty trivial. The problem is that it costs money so the real question becomes that of finding a means of AFFORDABLE AND PROFITABLE exposure. Lots of famous musicians have gone broke because they failed to find PROFITABLE exposure. Every artist that ever got ripped off went along with it because of exaggerated claims made for the value of "exposure."

Think about the relationship between advertising and publicity. Advertising is where you pay for exposure to a certain audience. Publicity is when you create an appropriate news item for a certain publication that sells advertising to a certain audience. You need serious research to make effective use of the former. The latter is almost always a lot more effective because you don't get written up at all unless you've done your homework. The thing that counts is the homework, identifying the appropriate audience and engaging them. Becoming a blip on THEIR radar as opposed to being on everybody's but lost in the noise.

[bigtree]

Hi, Now we're getting somewhere.

I personally don't really follow parts of this this thread but I like it.

Thriller was awesome and it tells me allot about the two sides. (musicians and TOP 40 musicians).
I was playing Top 40 on the road at the time this album came out. The public loved it and so did I. It was popular because it was magical and fresh sounding. MJ and Quincy Jones were magical together. The energy that was captured at that time was truly amazing and IMO should be part of all musical training. Anyone that thinks this was easy to create, play and produce needs to give their head a shake (I'm not saying anyone on this thread is, just making a point). IMHO a song that sells to more than your friends is successful because of this: It isn't about how great a musician you are but rather how together you are as a whole (band, team, mix, production, promotion etc.). Albums like Thriller had it all and that's why it sold that many records.

The album was a gift to us all. I feel so fortunate to have experienced that album. I thankfully understood how it was produced back then because I was using allot of the same tools that contributed to it's trend setting sound. My rig consisted of the same toys like samples from the Synclavier, a triggered linn drum sync't to sequencer's running synth's blended together with a guitar and good voices all coming though a kick ass 4 way Stereo front loaded JBL system system that was balanced and clear as a bell. We could always play to 9 and never be too loud but that's another topic.
We were midi'd up the ying yang and got paid Top $ for sounding better than most of the bands in our circuit. But, oh ya... we got flack from allot of musicians saying we were selling out and playing shit AM music and even better yet... we were cheating because we used midi and sequencer's in our music and sounded to trendy. My career lasted 20 years lol, I changed with the times.
To this day allot of those players never left their basement or got out of the B and C rooms. A large percentage of them still don't know how to use a computer I'm sure and argue about DAW's ver. analog. They continuously say the music they grew up with is way better than today's crap and in general don't believe a new way a creating and selling music is coming. Just because you have the best analog studio doesn't mean shit. Just because you can play like Van Halen doesn't mean shit. Just because you have a good song doesn't mean it will sell. I think we all agree that this is a small part of the selling music. We tend to get caught up in the wrong things I think and forget what the average listener or public wants and what the trends are that sells product. IMO defining trends and using them are the key.
Why is mp3 so popular even though you can't hear how great the studio's gear is? Why are Bell-bottom pants a trend again? Why is short hair a trend. Why are golf courses and recreation investments becoming a trend? Is Pro Tools a trend? Will RO become a trend? The main thing is using your talent and merging it with a trend. Trends sell, find the markets.

All I know is this. As a player I realized how to make money and the songs to play that drew the crowds. I enjoyed getting paid to play music so I new exactly the tools to use to get the sound that paid those bills. I never sold out my soul but I did to crowds... I learned so much from those years of playing Top 40. One of the most valuable things I learned was how to play my part well using the tools that were part of that trend. Although I can play circles around most guitar players the ten minute guitar solo only came out if the crowd that liked it was there. We changed our songs and style for the room.

What's the trend today? What are we selling? More like. who needs music and what type of music do they need.

Why is it that a large percentage of musicians call top 40 shit?

and

What do you think is selling?

[Bob Olhsson]

Well, I should come clean. The only thing that is EVER for sale in the entertainment business is the performer's relationship with their audience. The size of their audience totally defines the economics. The artist sells their audience to the label who in turn sells it to retail and to radio in order to sell the audience to their advertisers. The artist also sells their audience to the club owners and promoters who sell tickets.

At the present time music happens to only be playing a very minor role in the most successful performers' careers. For this reason those of us who really love music see little to be enthusiastic about. We simply aren't in those folk's audiences. So what can we do about it?

The thing is that only a tiny minority of people are ever in ANY given artist's audience. Most people are NOT into Ricky and Brittany so it isn't worth our while to be the slightest bit concerned about them or what the majors are doing with them. The majors did not create them, they simply sold a lot of records to their respective TV audiences. It's simply got nothing AT ALL to do with music. There is no point in following them as some kind of trend because they AREN'T a trend. The unfortunate truth is simply that most music isn't selling.

We need to get better at recruiting an audience for the music we love. It really falls on each artist's shoulders to create the relationships but what we can do collectively is to share our ideas and information about audience building. This must begin at the grass roots level where EVERY artist's audience actually begins.

We've got to figure out how to get kids exposed to exciting live music and we've got to figure out how to get live music back on the air. We've got to get most small venues to really clean up their audio acts so people can hear something besides the assault of a 120 dB. kick drum. We've got to start booking multi-genre shows and begin turning our small audiences on to each other. We must promote ourselves and fill clubs taking control back from the club owners.

Our AUDIENCE is our only power but it is also THE only power even at the highest levels of success. We have to create a lot of local scenes out of the ashes left behind by the corporate consolidation of local venues and promoters. We have to reinvent a profitable minor league in order to support the talent for another musical major league.

[audiowkstation]

Time for me to come clean as well.

In the 70's, I bought so much disco (12") because I had fun in the scene and was fearful that I may never here this music again. Some was wonderful, some was (well I am not particulary fond of YMCA...but it still is a fav. amongst the 40 something crowd) not as wonderful.

In the 80's I spent so much time playing top 40 as well. Their was not a great selection for audiences to enjoy the Trombone, so I moved to ele. Bass. I also was one that when visiting a club,(not playing in it) in order to stay and have a good time..I would get with the owner and re-eq the system to kill the pain.

To answer Big trees question, It depends on THE top 40. I bought a Britney CD and I really thought the mastering was not good. I wonder how good it can sound. Proves that mastering is important to me...but not that important to her audience...I suppose. I really guess age has something to do with it. I met an old dude that use to frequent the club scene. He was a hit with all the Girls. He was handicapped, barely could walk..and use to shout; NO Problem!! He had a great attitude and fit in like a glove.

Bob is right that the audience must be found. Maybe educated. We have an audience, we must find it. I also know that if you play something to reduntancy, it will sell (If in the stores).

I have heard many groups say that they formed simply "because they were tired of hearing the "shit" on the radio". Just because I am fond of "supertramp" does not mean I am not open to some mainstream. In the early 90's I was behind the big "blues push" and saw that come forward. I then got involved with serious "Smooth Jazz" and their are hundreds of great albums out there. I love the sound. Love Keiko Matsumi, Bob James, Bony James, Larry Carlton...Worked on some of this myself. I guess it has something also to do with my age and deep appreciation for the talent. Chris, it is so possible that I have not taken the time to expose myself to the real, up to date top 40 and find the appreciation. If we could sell 10,000 cd's of any type..that would be very good for us to start.

I am afraid I sounded so utterly cynical in earlier post but to speak what I feel (and see)& what others around me feel and say as well is one area I wanted to bring forward. Frankly if the production is good, the product is avalible...we have a shot.

I have also said in other threads that this industry changes so much that to be on the forfront...you simply have to be there. Not many know the formula. What works today may be obsolete in 6 months but having quality product will sell.

Let's give it our best shot and keep on plugging away. It is all of our dreams to get something huge happening, I am greatful to be surrounded by those who also want this. With perserverance...it will happen. (Got my Techno machine warmed up too and a kick ass Femail vocalist ready to wail)

One item is the club scene. Many possibilities there. Rock. I have a deep appreciation for Rock. We all do. Rock and Roll, slightly toward the metal side too. Smooth Jazz. Chris, you can produce anything, what do you want to produce?
Jazz sells. Maybe not huge numbers but sells nevertheless.

I am ready to get busy myself. This week I will compile some discs of everything I got and get them in the mail. (Projects waiting to be heard)

I will also be willing to accept works to check out, remaster, etc and we can have viable work ready to go.

I formally ask that anyone who wishes to send me demo material, I will be happy to work with them.

Chris, what would you think of having a CD submission situation going on where members could send CD's in to You, Me, Bob..whoever to really check out and see what could go "R.O."?

That sounds good. Will it go "R.O.". I like the sound of that....

IO have heard some good things from the downloads. I feel we really enjoy hearing what other studio's are doing and if their artist are open to this...let's go for it.

The key now is to have the music ready to go and avalible to put out there. We can talk about as much as we want to..but I am hip to doing something soon.

I appreciate everyones points in this discussion and I apologize if I ruffled some feathers but since it is being done the way it is, we can do something huge together as a team. I have no doubt that the experience will be awesome.

I may drop some bux this week on some billboard material and see what is happening again. I hope I will not be waisting my money.

[Bob Olhsson]

The Radio and Records site offers a lot of free information about what's happening as does the Gavin site.

There is a major difference between successful top 40 and successful original music. (h)

In top 40 you are hitchhiking with a currently successful artist's audience. That word "artist" really means "brand name." A successful top-40 band has a "brand" that is somewhere between a star's brand and being generic where folks like the music but could care less who's playing it.

In the case of original material, you are finding your own audience and creating a new star brand. The very cheapest way to do this is to hitchhike with a disk jockey's audience or some live scene's audience. When that isn't available, it becomes the art of creating your own live scene. There is also the expensive way but if Warners and Universal can only average selling 800 units per new title in that manner, WE certainly don't want to go THERE!

The difference between the two is that there is a six-month to several year lag between when you do something with original material and there is any effect in the market. The only ways that you can move faster than this are not profitable although occasionally useful for the majors to take a loss doing. This is why the only thing worth focusing on is each artist's fan base and where THEY seem to be headed.

Let me go into the nature of generic vs. star/branded entertainment.

People will not generally pay for generic music. This is critical to understand, people are not willing to pay for or go out of their way to experience generic entertainment. When the club, the DJ, the station, the label or the web site becomes the "brand" attracting an audience, the artist can not make anything. By the same token if clubs, stations, labels and web-sites are dependent on a musical star's audience and that star has the power to withhold services until they are adequately compensated, clubs, stations, labels and web-sites stand to make a lot less money. This is why there is a propaganda barrage coming from dot-coms and broadcasters about "unfair record labels" and compulsory music licensing. This is really a direct assault on all artists' livelihood as opposed to one on the the major labels as their newspeak would have one believe. Ugly stuff and an amazing amount of young artists are swallowing it in their frustration over corporate dominance of music.

Anyhow, lets talk about what tools we can create to help artists grow an audience to sell records to.

[Bob Olhsson]

Incidentally, in the current market there are a lot of what we call "turntable hits" that are getting massive airplay but not selling big at all.

-In the country chart, the "Oh Brother" soundtrack has been sitting on number one for several months with virtually NO airplay.

-The number one music format station in San Francisco for six months last year was classical yet classical sales in the region were in the toilet relative to even a couple years ago.

-there are rappers selling millions of units out on the streets with no airplay and obviously no retail reporting.

This isn't about air-play at all, it's about the top management of the majors not having a clue and the writers at Salon and WebNoise having even less of one!

[Bear's Gone Fission]

Okay, I have a question. What does it mean that a band can often make more money selling 50,000 records on an indie vs 500,000 on a major? In the wake of grunge, the indie network was devoured by the majors and still seems incredibly fragmented, but the right combination of factors can still make this path more profitable to the artist. So if the business is about selling the artists' rapport with audience, what's going on here? Inadequate commercial exploitation? Are the minor labels' profit margins just more realisticly figured? Or is it that the minors are sometimes better at tapping into musical true believers, folks who like creativity and will follow a career? One might argue the weakness of current music has to do with the majors cannabalizing the infrastucture the minors had provided, so new talent isn't as easily nurtured.

Any agreement, disagreement, or discussion?

Bear

[Bob Olhsson]

Up to a certain size audience an artist can definitely do much better sticking with an indi. Just the management overhead necessary to relate to a major's sales force is cripplingly expensive. Attempting to buy a major label sized fanbase using major label funds is a BIG gamble compared to working within the smaller budgets of an indi. label.

Where many artists get screwed is that their managers bring in a major too early in their development. Often this is about seeking that huge advance that, needless to say, the manager and/or lawyer is skimming 15 or 20 percent off the top of.

Like I've said above, it's ALL about finding PROFITABLE exposure. Neither massive air play or a major label relationship are worth a damn to an artist who hasn't managed to get themselves into the position to profit from them.