Thread: The 2-mix buss/console question?

Well firstly the Trident is a lot of things but not quiet. (Personally I love EM but wouldn't want to be forced to use their sound on an entire mix)

Have you looked at Audient. They should cost about $30-35k (ish) over there for a basic (no auto/dynamics) 36 channel in-line. They're very clean sounding, so if you want the desk to have a strong sound then it's not for you. Alternatively, if you want to use different outboard to add different sounds to each track whilst adding as little colour as possible from the desk then it's certainly worth a listen/look.

Ergonomically it couldn't be better. It's the easiest console to use/look at that I've ever seen.

I/O and dynamic range is great and easily drives our 24bit DAW (Soundscape R.Ed). Inserts are ground comp out/fully balanced in so it'll connect to anything.

The metering is also great and matches our DAW really well.

EQ - whilst lacking in any positive character, is very usable and we only use outboard eq (CLM/Trident) for vocals or extreme effects.

I know you're not too concerned about pre-amps but....Recently we tested a load of channel strips (Amek/Focusrite etc) and whilst we didn't choose a strip (opted for seperate pre amp/comp/eq instead) it did show up exactly how good the pre-amps in the Audient were.

A final point - when looking at desks, we had a checklist of features that the desk should have with a score rating for each item. The Audient was the onely desk (for our price range) that scored a hit on every point.

Just to keeps things open minded, I've got one comment about the Audient console. Like thousands of others, the first time I got to take a long look at one was at last fall's AES show in LA. I could be mistaken (because I looked at a LOT of gear that weekend), but I remember being surprised that the Audient did NOT have individual channel strips. That certainly does not affect the sound or function of the console, but I was surprised to see that feature missing in a console competing at that level. As more and more digital consoles come on the market, people may get used to seeing boards without modular construction, because it doesn't really apply to digital equipment. But I couldn't imagine paying $30k for an analog console that doesn't offer that extremely useful maintenance feature. If I remember correctly, the Audient is constructed similarly to the MTA 924 in that the channel strips are built in groups of either 4 or 8 channels. I really should have checked those two websites to confirm this before posting, but that's what I recall. I guess that's one feature that means more to some people than to others.

steve

Steve -
That's not strictly true. Although the channels on the Audient are not divided into strips, they are grouped into banks of 12 functions (e.g. 12 faders, 12 pans, 12 bus selects etc.) . This is similar to having individual strips - it's just that the strips run across the board and not down. Therefore if a fader breaks, that bank of 12 faders only is replaced instead of an entire channel strip (and certainly not a group of 4-8 channels).
This actually makes for easier and cheaper maintenance if something needs replacing (and is one of their many selling points).
-Peter

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly. But I know that I would rather lose one complete channel than all the faders across 12 channels, or all of the eq across 12 channels, etc. I have on a few occasions lost one channel and carried on quite nicely without that one channel. But if I lost 12 channel faders, I'd be screwed until a replacement arrived or it was repaired. Am I getting this right? Is there anyone who wouldn't rather give up one complete channel than have 12 channels basically shut down? If I've got this wrong, please explain.

Steve

Why would you lose all 12 faders ? If a single fader breaks (or eq, pan etc) then that's ALL that breaks . They are joined together so that they can be lifted out in one piece. But just because one part of the bank fails doesn't mean you lose the entire section.

The only downside is you can't send a bank away for repair without losing 12 channels but would you do that anyway ?

Hi EJolson,

I can see that you are not too keen on DAWs. However, you also mentioned a budget of $30-50K. IMHO, you are not going to find anything in this price range to compare with the quality of say a properly clocked PTools/ProControl system with top class converters and a rack of quality outboard gear.

Now, I'm not an digital guy who is anti-analog. I feel that the best quality analog is still a fair bit better than the best quality DAW. If your budget could reach to a used Neve, I wouldn't hesitate. But the best quality DAW is IMHO, better than the equivalent priced mediocre analog. I used to use Logic + PTools hardware + O2R and faced the same decision you are facing about 2 years ago. I have to say that loading up a PTools system is a completely different ball game as far as quality of sound is concerned compared to PTools hardware and an O2R, which I found was seriously harsh, even if you bypass the O2R's onboard Pre's, A/D conversion, EQ and Dynamics!

If you can afford a used Euphonix then IMHO your decision becomes much harder.

My 0.02 cents,

Greg

So what does it mean that it should "sound absoulutely shreddin'"? As in, "oh my god, it sounds like a wire with gain and sums!" or does that mean it adds nice color to the sound? Anyway, here's a few more choices I know about.

I think the Amek Media 51 starts around $49k. Not sure whether it's just an improved B.I.G., which would mean to many a polished turd, or whether it's a baby 9098i. It's VCA, but the VCA's aren't supposed to audibly affect the sound from one magazine review I read, though I'm not sure I trust the review. It definitely has some automation horsepower, and the channel inputs and pres benefit from Rupert Neve design. May be worth investigating. I'd be more sold if I knew the bussing went through a major redesign, too, though I'm not sure if that was the big problem to start with on the B.I.G.

You can definitely get a used Neotek in your price range, likely even an Elite, and they're really nice big sounding boards with nice color for rock and roll. Probably not as colored as an API or Trident, maybe a little more neutral. In your budget range, you could maybe even get one with motorised fader automation.

The D&R stuff has the reputation of being very clean and transparent. Nice equipment, but maybe doesn't get it's fair appreciation because it isn't colored and exciting. Very exciting, though, when you don't want added coloration.

If you just want awesome old school analog sound, you could wait and drool over the promised Daking consoles like me. At least I don't think the 24*8*2 configuration is out yet, which would list at $40k or $45k I think. Gotta figure out a business plan to open a profitable studio in town so I can afford to work on somthing like this.

da Bear

Hi guys, thanks for the response...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>I can see that you are not too keen on DAWs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to clarify... I am actually a *big* DAW fan. I know there are some pure analog zealots who won't touch anything with a microprocessor in it, but I'm not one of 'em. In fact I used to be a "once-digital-stay-digital" kinda guy.... my shop had a bunch of O2R's linked together, and then we got into ProControl when it came out. Mind you, I never got a chance to cut my teeth on a nice 2"-into-SSL kinda rig. So when the O2R came out, and I suddenly had access to an 80-track moving fader all-digi board with dynamics on every channel (you know the drill) ...well, I just about wet myself. And I think, having that kind of control over EVERY ELEMENT of my mixes forced me to stop making excuses for what was wrong, and start paying more attention to space, and arrangement, and getting it right "at the source". In short it made me a better producer, no question about it.

But... I had a series of epiphanies about a year ago, when I decided I wanted to have a home studio again. I got a li'l MOTU rig, and inherited a hairy old Mackie mixer to monitor through. Plus I had a couple nice analog pieces to track thru (Manley VoxBoxes and a couple Distressors).

And the strangest thing happened. Quite frequently I'd spit tracks out across multiple outs from the MOTU, and do my mixes analog... just 'cuz I didn't have an O2R or ProControl at the house, and still wanted to grab faders. So I mixed analog, and got into doing things like submixing drums thru the Distressors, or slapping the Manley EQ's across the lead or BG vox. Well, the first time I tried to take one of my "at-home" mixes downtown, with the intent of re-doing it on the all-digi setup, I just about fell out of my chair. For the life of me, I could NOT recreate the phatness of my analog mixes at the house, done on my el cheapo Mackie. And the OUTBOARD?? Fuggedaboutit. The O2R EQ's versus my Manleys? Ha!! The Waves RenComp vs. my Distressors? Not a chance.

I actually think, like you said, that a well-clocked DAW with decent converters on it is gonna sound pretty good. The real issue for me is what happens when I try to *mix* all in the box, with plug-ins instead of outboard. And this is what I'm trying to address by getting into a better analog console.