Thread: Why I think analog summing is bunk.

Originally Posted by bigtree

I better back off and give it back to the OP, Paul, are you still listening?

Please don't back off this has been a most interesting read. I 've been dealing with a water main break and its aftermath in front of my studio so this was the soonest I could get back.

Anyway. As I was baby sitting an emergency sump pump(listening to it with one ear making sure it was still functioning) while in my control room editing a pile of songs. I was thinking about the "trying to keep all the faders as close to 0 as possible. I use Logic (just changed over) the input meters are odd. I am recording at record low volumes for me(pun intended). As far as I can tell everything is at +4 db. Even with hot output pre's like 512c's I need to really lay into it to get around -10db. For most sources I don't nearly push the pre that hard. I had a song up where my meters were all in the bottom quarter of the channel meter and the output was clipping. Now I can lower the output or lower the channels. I decided to experiment because I do keep my channel levels up when routing out of my convertors into analog gear. I lowered my channels ridiculously low. I turned up my monitor to volume full. I couldn't hear a real difference or deterioration of the sound as I lowered the levels. I hear no ZZZZZZZ. Not that I don't want to. I mean I am 100% analog on some projects and I want to be able to go to my customers and show them the ZZZZZZZZ that my studio doesn't have.LOL I really want to be an analog snob. If I do a fade in on any track or a mix where I have my monitor volume on full and slowly fade in should I hear a ZZZZZZ in the lows? Should it get better sounding as I raise the channel volume and decrease the monitor volume? These are actual questions and not meant to be rhetorical or sarcastic.

Okay enough beating that to death. I TOTALLY get not enjoying the sound of plugin's. The clinical reaction times of compressors, the sibilance that can't be dessed, eq'd out or smoothened with any digital "rolling pin" totally sticks out to me.

The biggest benefit I get from analog gear compared to digital is air movement. I remember when I was about 12 and was at the arcade where the music was brutally loud. I noticed that when this Def leppard song came on that it had a huge sounding kick but the air didn't move when it played. The shock Waves produced by digital recordings don't seem to produce the same amount of air movement or shock wave that analog does. At least not to my senses.

So there it is, some of us hear zzzzzzz others don't feel their rock-star hair getting blown back from the digital frequencies. Most people look at me like I have 14 heads when I mention the air movement thing. So now I am wondering if you are hearing ZZZZZ are you noticing the lack of air movement?

Originally Posted by Paul999

....The biggest benefit I get from analog gear compared to digital is air movement. I remember when I was about 12 and was at the arcade where the music was brutally loud. I noticed that when this Def leppard song came on that it had a huge sounding kick but the air didn't move when it played. The shock waves produced by digital recordings don't seem to produce the same amount of air movement or shock wave that analog does. At least not to my senses....

(a) Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of physics!
(b) Pull the other one. It's got bells on.

On another topic entirely - Good luck with the water main break. I hate dealing with water damage!

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by BobRogers

(a) Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of physics!
(b) Pull the other one. It's got bells on.

Yep. I am nuts! So is anyone that does this for a living.LOL

Good luck with the water main break. I hate dealing with water damage!

Thanks. It was a lot of work to keep things under control and minimize damage. We'll survive but it has disrupted everything.

Well, whether its bunk or not, my Sequoia rig is awesome ITB and I highly recommend that over everything. The way it calculates and finishes music is really outstanding. I see why most Mastering Engineers choose it over all the other DAW. Sequoia was the biggest improvement to my DAW system since I left analog and dumped Pro Tools. I'd be quite satisfied with just that and a fine CP. I know most people are unaware of the sound I am annoyed with. Its all just music to most ears and for the science guys, no different because it just doesn't add up.

As far as sampled kicks like Def Leopard, ya... ( for my tastes) I personally do not enjoy (most) real drums over sampled. I can never get enough tasteful keyboard flavour combined with a rocking guitar (acoustic nylon or heavy metal) for my growing love of Pop music. Strictly from an commercial music POV since the Linn Drum was introduced in 1978 (I think), I personally don't see any business logic's (top 40) in micing drums when you can use perfectly tuned and shaped kicks, snares, hats and toms. They are what the majority of youth (who are buying music) are attracted to and how you sync beats to and so on and so on... Its how I build pop songs in the studio in a smart way. 20 years later, its still 4 4 doing a boom smack! Drums are basically boom smack in the music that makes money. ( we are talking about the business too).
I've made a living off of samples and programmed drums long before engineers even knew they were listening to sequencers and samples (why I popped that Synclavier and Emulator into this thread). I'm a midi maniac and a go to for samples for most songs I've ever written the last 30 years and what I'm drawn to for personal tastes in music at a party, with my children or a study.

Again to clarify the zzz I'm speaking about, for those just chiming in here for the first time, is not prone to just my work or studio sound because I am doing something odd or incorrect using cheap samples and so on. It is the sound of the mixes in lower end DAW system for certain and the compressed recordings of the last 20 years on CD, radio and broadcasting today. Its the overall sound happening around the world. Its smashed, and overloaded with that crammed sound buzzing in everything. Its like a 3k tickle (no I'm not going deaf lol) . Not to mention the lack of space which is really why I am going hybrid. I simply want more headroom to play with and the ability to shape groups with more control. I want to be able to group certain tones of a mix into their own groups in an analog stage and in that environment, sound design around it. Generally speaking, I think if you aren't doing this with your analog system, you are already diminishing the benefits. I also think if you are not into sound designing, you are entering an area of sound that is either over most engineers perception or beyond your personal interests in music.
I often think the reason I am interested in hybrid is because I am a professional musician (guitarist) with both parents who were both classically trained and Metropolitan opera singers that influenced me in the acoustics of music but became interested in electronics very early in the game. They told me to keep my roots but go into popular because that was the top of the food chain. My love for clarity and totally techno just burns passion in me. I'm not a recording engineer at all. I'm a very proficient musician who knows many sides of this industry quite well. Musician and Performing, Composition, Sound Design and Sampling, Programming/ Sequencing and Sound Engineering plus running this site for musicians and enginners. So its been a process of evolving into a hybrid musician. My MixDream is my new journey.

I'm not familiar with your console Paul so it could be that you are gaining little from this. I've selectively chosen key product for my hybrid system and if it doesn't improve after all this, I will hang my analog hat up and never look back. I have a feeling though, that I am entering the new world of recording and track designing of music.
Its a very exciting time for me. I'm even more excited to share my finding with our community here if it proves true to my ears. Positives and Negatives. No one is paying me to do this. Its my next journey into sound designing.

Some of us do hear the ZZZZ. Sometimes its just zzzzzz. Othertimes its ZZZZZZ. and unfortunately some recordings (a lot of recent ones) it goes ZZZZZZZZ.

I dont hear it when I record into my HD24. I dont really hear it until I use Pro Tools as my capture. The pres on the 003 have the ability to add some sort of annoying insect sound so I dont use them at all. But bringing tracks into PT from a high-end analog source seems to quiet this.

However. I'm still really old school and I like grainy mixes. I want the preamps as open as possible. I want to get down into the circuit and bend the source with whatever the pres will add to it. Going into a digital input m this way means I cannot ever stay at 0db's with the faders. The only time there going to be at unity is a digital to digital pass.

About air movement. Its shocking to me that something with as much low-end mass cannot even pass the toilet-tissue test from the early 80's .....Those of you who are also ....errr.....elderly, remember that....Remy does for sure. Hell, I used to measure the cone excursion on the monitors just to make sure we were getting the bass correct.....

The sibilance with the plugs is a thing for sure. Its here that I really find the digital world to be lacking but at the same time to be able to have that many tools that actually have some use without budgeting the facility out of business is really cool. Since I'm old (really old) I've experienced a lot of the gear in real rack-mounted glory that are now emulations in a menu on my screen. Yeah, theres differences. The emulations are getting closer. The UA stuff is really good. The signature stuff like the Puig plugs and the Eddie Kramer stuff is really nice tools. The really basic plugs have that zzzz so using them in sparcity is my goal. That doesnt say that they have no use. But, for those who are absoluely dead-set on eliminating the zzzz, theres only a few solutions.

I think we are starting to hear music produced on Hybrid systems. I'm definately hearing tape again on productions that have a bit of a budget. I'm not sure that the zzzz becomes so prominate when you capture to tape or to Radar...perhaps. Maybe it is better converters or maybe its the technology finally catching up to the dreams of the digital designers who envisioned the ease of use with high-fidelity so many years back but failed miserably at the fidelity department.

Then theres this thought that occurs to me.....Maybe they intentionally leave in the ZZZZZ in order to agitate the population!

I suppose thats another discussion for another forum.

Okay this just clicked in my brain. I get the ZZZZZZ you guys are talking about. Running good convertors is keeping the zzzzzzzzz just under the radar for me. I tried the Behringer convertors that have had so much good press. They are the definition of ZZZZZZZZ to me. Even my wife could hear it(She does payroll for a living and provides that "can my wife hear the difference when I spend 5K" test.)LOL The D&R consoles are popular in the U.K. kind of like raindirk and those caliber of boards. They sell for about 20-30K new. A fantastic B room board. I have zero issues with samples and I think I understand your definition of sound design.

Even though I truly believe in the value of analog I have an engineering friend that is totally ITB and a fantastic engineer. His mixes are great and though they don't have the same "depth" as OTB they have a modern sheen in the highs that just don't happen in analog. It is a "sound". I bet after in 10 years people are going to be requesting that" digital vintage 2D sound that tickles the ears with that pleasant ZZZZZZZZZ sound.LOL Just like we were once frustrated that tape didn't recreate the authentic sound we now love what we once avoided.

Originally Posted by Boswell

Of course, what I was comparing was a 96KHz recording mixed in analogue to a 44.1KHz 2-track recorder and a 44.1KHz recording mixed digitally to 44.1KHz 2-track. Neither of these two methods uses digital SRC, and what I have not done recently is the comparison with 96KHz recordings mixed digitally at 96KHz and then digital SRC down to 44.1KHz. I don't have a quality SRC that I would trust for that comparison.

This is an interesting thread that Herbeck turned me onto at Samplitude/Sequoia. http://support2.magix.net/boards/sam...howtopic=25747 They are discussing an interesting challange over SRC with Sonar's 64 bit to Sequoia 32 bit float. Bob Katz is doing the tests and some other respectables are there as well . To add, Herbeck, our member here has designed a plugin that does SCR . They are comparing it to Saracon Weiss :: SARACON . I think you will find it interesting.

Perhaps something along the lines of a Manley Passive at the gateway to the 2 buss will add enough of its own set of harmonics to filter out this thing. Big tubes, big iron, nothing gets out without it becoming what is dictated by the circuit itself.

Exactly what I do. As I can't afford 10 massive passives, I long ago gave up using this as a tracking EQ and strapped it across the 2-buss to my Hafler so every time I record its already present and working the signal from tracking to mastering. Means I can 'use' it on every channel without 'printing' it till I roll out on 2CH. Whether it sorts the ZZZ problem IDK, its not something I experience, as hopefully its not something I generate in the first place, either that or I am too dumb to notice it!

Commiserations on the water damage Paul there's plenty of history here on my flood, which I survived with surprisingly little cost. Mind you the insurance company still haven't paid out 2 years later.