Thread: Help!! Building a studio (no clue what im doing)

Here is a question for ya lol dont laugh.


Could you link two c24's next to each other. Assuming you had a reason for it.????

In theory that would be 48 channels ....... Has to be a way./..
I COULD BUY TWO USED ONES FOR THE PRICE OF ONE NEW ONE

You are certainly not asking stupid questions so I have really nothing to laugh about.

If you'd like to look at my website it's Crowmobile With a .com . There are five pages and each page has a complete live song mix that were done for live broadcasts. There is only one song that was actually remixed because it had started off as an 8 track production for a barbecue party on the front lawn of NBC-TV, Washington DC. And it was done back in 1993. I utilized my 8 channels of the API microphone preamps. This device has two separate outputs for each channel. So those 8 channels went to the eight track recorder and the other 8 outputs was piped into an analog Yamaha PM 700 mixer which then fed the power amplifiers speakers and stage monitors. And that particular cut is the funky sounding cut with a female singer. It was remixed online then Sphere Eclipse C. All the other cuts on the other four pages are live for FM and television broadcasts so there was no remixing to those.

In reference to your question of utilizing 2 C-24's, I do not possess the knowledge to advise you on that. I actually did that with two of my previous analog consoles, my Auditronics 501's, to make one large console. But Avid/Digi Design does some strange things so utilizing 2 together may or may not be possible? This would be a question better asked of Avid directly at their website. Since they are considered a control surface for Pro Tools, it may not be possible? But because of the way the C-24 control surface integrates with ProTools, utilizing 2 would not necessarily be a necessity. Any C-24 can handle many more tracks than just 24. It can handle 48, 72, 96, etc.. Because it's really nothing much more than a gigantic remote control and you work with layers to transfer between groups of 24. And certain faders can be assigned to other tracks that may be beyond the sequential 24. For example fader number 16 might be assignable to control track 51. Unfortunately I'm not 100% certain of that either because I don't own one and I have not worked upon one. Other folks here may be able to answer your question more comprehensively but you would be best off contacting Avid directly.

By the way, nice purchase of that keyboard. It's hard to go wrong with any Yamaha. You are certainly gearing up for quite a comprehensive studio.

Yes, you will probably find that some of those C-24 microphone preamps may in fact sound better to you with certain combinations of microphones and instruments. And you are thought of obtaining 24 other quality outboard microphone preamps would be a very worthy thing to do. And you shouldn't necessarily purchase 24 of the same ones. But instead 3 different manufacturers of 8 preamps.

Your confusion between microphone preamps and computer audio interfaces that contain microphone preamps is a confusing concept. Both are available and both have their place. For the smaller home studio owner a computer audio interface operating with FireWire that contains 8 microphone preamps within, makes a lot of sense for a small studio owner or to be utilized on location. They are much smaller and can be more convenient to capture a multitrack performance when you don't actually need to utilize a large and heavy mixer.

Some manufacturers offer and make a single package with 8 microphone preamps but without any computer audio interface. Their outputs are strictly analog and need to be plugged into an analog to digital converter such as an Apogee, Lavery, ProTools HD 3 and such. And of course they can be plugged into the line level inputs of your C-24. Which would mean those microphones would be going into your boutique preamps and bypassing the preamps in the C-24.

I don't possess a software " surface control " console like a C-24. Instead, I utilize an analog console, my 36 input Neve. The analog Neve then feeds 24 inputs to my standalone multi-track recorder, my Alesis HD 24. This gives me the option to then mix down a recording project in analog through the Neve. Or, I have the option of transferring the digital 24 track recording from the digital 24 track recorder into my computer. And from my computer, I can accomplish all of the mixing within whatever software I want to use. The software that I have and use is ProTools 7.0/7.4 and Sony Vegas and Adobe Audition. Sometimes this depends upon the clients preferences or just my own. They all work and sound equally great. But there are different plug-ins that sound different and only operate in certain pieces of software. So this might dictate to me what software I want to utilize to mix with. And because I don't have a control surface interface like a C-24, I have to do it all with a trackball/mouse. And this can be a lot more tedious that way. Because for every function one has to go through numerous drop-down menus instead of just grabbing at a control on a control surface/mixer like a C-24. I hope this clears up some of your confusion regarding microphone preamps and computer audio interfaces with microphone preamps? You indicated that you had intended to utilize your C-24 with USB? Though it might be more advantageous if it has alternative computer interfaces such as FireWire 400/800. Newer devices coming onto the market place now feature an even faster computer interface called Thunderbolt. Some of these computer interface connections are only 32-bit where the newer ones will be 64-bit. This might alter your purchasing decision process? Everything will be and is going to 64-bit. Windows 7 for example is a 64-bit operating system where Windows XP is essentially a 32-bit operating system. Many 32-bit devices and software will run on a 64-bit computer and operating system. But the reverse is not generally possible to run a native 64-bit program on a 32-bit operating system. So a lot more information there to cram even tighter into your brain. Mine is already on overload.

Your idea of an addition to your home has been done by lots of other folks in the same manner as you are talking about. And if the studio doesn't fly, you'll still have a nice control room for your purposes and a place to put your mother-in-law LOL. And that would be a very nice thing to do and one in which I think the time will let some point arise. Thankfully, one of my mother-in-law's, I divorced and the other one died. So I have nothing to worry about other than myself which is a full-time job, LOL.

I'm so old I'm falling behind the curve while my curves are starting to bulge
Mx. Remy Ann David

Nice webpage... mobile huh? SWEET!! Never thought of someone doing that. Sounds like its working though. Congrats!

So i played around with a c24 today and a icon command..

First thing i noticed is that the icon is built WAY better and moves way smoother than the C24. I also noticed that the price tag to get 24 channels on an ICON is like 60k. Comapred to the C24?? :(
I just want someone to back up the fact that the C24 is completely capable of producing fantastic sounds. I heard nothing but bad things compared to the ICOn from 5 people today who all have both machines say ICON owns the C24 in every way grrr lol
But im going to have to learn how to dominate the c24 and make it my bitch ha ha and get the best sound on earth from it lol

anyways, just heard bad crap allday about it and they didnt have much to back it up with, but i noticed it was just smoother and easier to real levels that about it. but im worthless about giving a review because im uneducated!! too late to go back because i allready paid for the C24 and its on its way yay!!


anywhooo. i know more than i did about pre amps and interfaces, but still have a long ways to go. Also pro tools HD and pro tools 10 are basically the same, only difference is one is 64 bit and uses thunderbolt? or is there more than that thats different?

I looked into properties in LA area that are beat up really bad and just need to much work to make it worth turning into a studio. I dont know what im going to do as far as finding a building to have a studio at. I like the idea of living at studio, but Im not sure i want to buy a house in LA. Fo now im just collecting equipment i guess. Wish i could find a studio that is in pre construction form and ran out of money during the construction phase, that would be sweet!!

I think i might just hire you to work in the studio. I talked to cousin and we have easily 20 people that have there own bands that want to record there. So im over being scared about getting customers, more worried about our finished product being good enough. ha ha especially if i cant find anyone good to work at the studio.

That's very sweet of you and I'm quite flattered. But you would be hiring an idiot since I have no hands-on, on the C-24 nor, the Icon.

You'll be pleased to know that actually both the Icon & the C-24 actually sound the same. They really are nothing more than gigantic remote controls to control ProTools in the computer. With the C-24, its limitations lie more around the fact that it has less controls. This means you have to utilize its trackball in order to access all of the features you want for each channel strip. I think you'll find that old-school engineers, much like myself, take faster to the Icon, because it more closely resembles in its operational characteristics that of a large frame analog console. Though the microphone preamps might be slightly better, they are not designed much differently from those in the C-24. So utilizing the C-24 requires more use of the trackball so that you can select what you want to control and then control it from the channel strip of the C-24. Where as with the Icon, you have a lot more controls for each channel strip.

So most of the sound variants come from what type of native or third-party plug-ins you have loaded into ProTools. And I believe when you purchase an Icon, you get a bigger supply of plug-ins that you do with the C-24. But all that means is that if you want those certain kinds of plug-ins, you would have to purchase those plug-ins as additional options for your ProTools 24.

I believe you're also slightly incorrect regarding the ProTools 10 HD with Thunderbolt. It is my understanding that ProTools 10 is still a 32-bit program. But it can run on a 64-bit computer and operating system. Thunderbolt simply means that the bidirectional computer data can run a heck of a lot faster. There are some folks that can work unbelievably fast as either feel the need or are required to function faster in different studio environments than others studios. Some folks are required to work faster to turn around postproduction audio for say, a television series. If doing postproduction for something like a movie soundtrack, you may not be in such a tight time constraint. And I believe therein lies the biggest difference. So in your studio situation, depending upon how much you charge per hour, it won't be as big a factor as working in a premium studio where the hourly rate may be much higher. Some studios command $1500 or even more for a day's worth of time. So I don't think you've made a poor decision. So don't sweat your choice.

Regarding the buildings in LA, that can change certain factors when you are in commercial zoning. As compared to a home studio which is not necessarily zoned for commercial use. Places like Nashville have cracked down on home studios in residential areas operating as commercial businesses. One of the reasons for that is that it jeopardizes the large, extremely expensive commercially zoned facilities. Otherwise those studios would be in jeopardy by a reduction in business. So those are difficult decisions only you can make. Everything has its pros and cons. If you're living out in the boonies, it may not be as big a factor for you. If you are in a residential area of the suburbs, it could make life and business much more problematic for you. So again it comes down to location, location, location. But I also think that starting with your studio at home and with your possible addition to the house is still a great idea. If you get a cease-and-desist order from your county, you are either going to have to close down or, move your facility to a commercially zoned area. But then of course, you would have your mother-in-law's granny shack. So I think it's a win-win for you. Go for it until somebody tells you otherwise. Though, heavy advertising and promotion could cause you trouble. Especially if you become a popular facility and you have a huge amount of traffic coming and going. It only takes one or two complaints from neighbors to make your life a living hell. But if there are no neighbors nearby you're probably good to go. Again, it really depends on your area of your location.

Regarding you are still confused state about external preamps, you really only need the strictly analog variety. And it will be in the analog variety where you will find the best preamps. There are many good computer audio interfaces with excellent preamps but none of them are like the analog boutique versions. So that's what I believe you'll want. The ones in the computer audio interfaces are generally pretty run-of-the-mill. The more expensive interfaces such like the ProTools 10 HD with Thunderbolt still don't necessarily have the quality nor the sweetness that analog boutique preamps provide. So even with a system like that while the bidirectional data transfer can move 10 times faster, it wouldn't really be much different than utilizing a C-24 with additional outboard, hardware, boutique analog microphone preamps. However some of the difference may actually be the analog to digital conversion in the C-24 because, it's an ever so slightly older device than ProTools 10 HD. But that's true with all of this digital technology becoming better and more sophisticated each year. And you can't always keep playing catch-up. You merely have to settle in with a comprehensive system that works well for you. And what you have chosen, I can guarantee, it will work well for you and your clients.

So that's really the only difference between the different ProTools 10 systems. ProTools 10 is the same software regardless of who's interface you are running it on. So if the C-24 does not include all of the Waves third-party plug-in package, it's just another item on the list to purchase. And then there are those other more powerful, real-time, DSP plug-in cards you can get such as from folks like the Universal Audio U A D, with its own built-in DSP (digital signal processor). Which in a way, is a specialized, purpose built, sub CPU. And that is a card you would have to purchase and plug-in via whatever type of interface is included with that such as USB 2.0 & FireWire. The interesting thing about a lot of these plug-ins is that they are still native 32-bit plug-ins. I've read that the U A D does not work under certain 64-bit multitrack software programs. But it will work under 32-bit multitrack programs. Not everyone's everything is all cross compatible. It can become highly confusing and very frustrating. So depending upon your total system, you may not be able to make certain things available running a 64-bit program. Windows 7 is a 64-bit operating system that can run 32-bit programs. But again, even under those circumstances and scenario, not everything will work properly. But you'll have to find that out as you go.

For instance I have argued the fact that those folks that have utilized the Universal Audio U A D has a great sounding plate reverb in it. But having had numerous plate reverbs over the years, I don't really think it comes close to the real deal. But then you have many experts here whose opinions I do highly regard that think that U A D plate reverb program sounds like a plate reverb. But they probably never used a real plate reverb? It's actually a electromechanical device I still dearly miss. In software, you at least can still manipulate it to get quite close to the real thing. But a lot of people have nothing to compare it to when they make their inexperienced suggestions. Our computers and operating systems, even the 64-bit variety cannot reproduce, nor process, the density and the sweetness of a real plate reverb. But if software is all you have, it will have to do and still work out quite fine. Again, nothing you really need to worry about at this juncture. I don't think I've had a plate reverb since 1989? Instead, I have been utilizing outboard hardware digital reverberation. Plate reverbs create a certain acoustic sizzle. Some folks really go nuts and hate that sound. I miss that sound. Some folks don't think it's natural sounding. Maybe not? But I think it's an ultra cool sound. So that is generally my reverb of choice. My hardware digital reverbs such as the Lexicon PCM 60/70 & LXP-1's are run-of-the-mill reverbs. But I've had no problem utilizing them. I also have a Yamaha digital reverb which I rarely use for reverb. I find it much darker and more muddled sounding. But when I think I have the need for that darker reverb, then, I'll utilize the Yamaha unit. And I have done that many times. That's why in my hardware oriented, hybrid control room, I have 6 different digital reverbs & effects devices. And some of my inexpensive digital reverbs have no randomness to them. Whereas the extremely expensive ones have that randomness capability built into them. I actually found that out the hard way. I was doing and operatic recording in Wellington, New Zealand. I had my pair of LXP-1's. I had assumed that instead of taking a single units left and right output, I would just simply feed both units and from both units, I would just take the left channel output which is actually a combination of left & right. But what I ended up with was mono (monaural). I was just trying to achieve a greater density of reverb. So I was quite taken aback by what happened. When I contacted Lexicon they told me this happened because both devices were running identical software algorithms. When I asked about the randomness, they told me these inexpensive hardware reverbs had NO randomness. Because they were running identical algorithms, I got mono. So I quickly changed to just utilizing a single LXP 1 and then I had stereo reverb. I did have a $6000 digital reverb that was really spectacular sounding. But I really needed the cash and that's why I sold that one. Sometimes I regret that. But I really don't lose any sleep over it.

It's after 4 AM and I'm actually losing sleep as I have a couple of big days of video editing of a documentary film over the next couple of days.

Remy

Hey, sry it took so long to get back to ya. I am very pleased to know that the ICON and the C24 will sound the same. I finally feel like i understand pres!! FINALLY!! haha
You are right about most of the plug ins being 32 bit still as well as the difference between the Pro Tools 10 and the HD version. Thanks for that info!!

Ive been looking at Apogee symphony interface and BURL B2 bomber converters. They both have very good reviewes across the board and are as good as anything out there as far as i can find over the internet. :( ?

They are almost 3k each though, do you think its worth it if i got a few of the apogee interfaces??
Also I have decided to get a 32 channel ANAOG board lo ready for this................
.............
.............
............ Toft ATB 32!! pres are said to be pretty good and its a good board for the price im being told. I want to have a complete analog set up. and at the very end convert it to pro tools.
I would love to hear your opinion on this specific board, apogee and burl as a company. Or maybe you know of someone who has used them!!
im at the point of no return now and its setting in that this is as hard as i thought it was lol. Pro tools is the least of my problems i cant learn 20 years of experience in 6 months..jut mic placements and studio recording areas take practice to learn unless i find someone to teach me so i have a shorter learning curve.

im falling asleep ill add more tomorrow thanks again for everything

Just a stupid question....but if you don't know what you are doing why are you doing it?

If you don't know anything about recording or recording equipment why are you getting into the recording business? especially with a lot of high end equipment. To me it is like someone buys an expensive car but does not know how to drive. Or they buy a whole shop full of wood working tools but don't have the slightest idea of how to use any of them. In either case there could be some tragic results...

Just wondering????? not a flame....

Im doing it because I know tons of high profile artists that would be willing to record at my studio once it is completed. Also I have a guy that is very good at putting audio on movies. Also my cousin has had multiple offers to be signed but keeps declining them because he is stubborn. My whole family is very knowledgeable about music and the industry, except for the recording studio. We have all used them, but never really tried to understand what equipment they use and what the other options were.
I know people that have recording studios but im the kind of guy that would never take info from just one person, especially in this situation because i want to learn the ins and outs of a recording studio.

We already have way to many people that want to record in our studio once its done. We know people that are willing to help with the process but like i stated above i want opinions from as many people as possible. Another important factor is im the one paying for everything so i want to know exactly what im buying and everything. We do have a few engineers that have recorded tons of famous people and they have thrown me info on what they think i should have and what they would like to have in the studio to create a great product. I have bought tons of stuff that they requested me to buy because they are the ones that are going to be using it.

I dont go into things without feeling confidant about what im doing, especially when im looking at a 900k investment to do it. The equipment is by far the smallest cost of the studio. The house and the building are were the money goes obviously. Im asking all the question and trying to learn because i want to learn separate from what im doing with this studio. Im not going into this adventure alone as though it may seem that way because im on here. I have engineers and masterer's that have proven over the last 20 years they know everything there is to know and there product is always top notch.

I hope this explains were im coming from. Im also 6 hours away from the people that are going to work with me. So till december im trying to learn as much as i can so when i move to so cal i will not be starting from scratch.

So if you really want to make for great control room go for a used and restored API or Neve. Don't waste time with anything else. Perhaps an SSL 9000 J? Because if you want professional, those are professional. Those are the top-notch, most highly rated. Then you get ProTools 10 and a rack full of Apogee's. Read my lips... no stupid equipment. Then all you have to worry about is all of the analog outboard processing stuff like a few LA-2's, 1176's and stuff like that. Make sure you build a separate room to house an actual EMT 140 Plate, get a couple you'll want more than one. They are electromechanical and they have to be locked up in a completely quiet room. And don't forget some Eventide units. I'm not kidding. You'll need at least a half a dozen different control room speakers ranging from huge far field to midfield and a couple of near field. Don't waste your money on anything Mackie. It ain't high end.

Who will you be contracting to design your control room and studio acoustics? You know you just don't stick equipment in any old room. And you don't stick up a bunch of stupid foam. If you're going to do this right? You might as well do it right. If you want something stellar don't just ask any feller. You can get a lot of money wasting information that way. 900 K is a sizable investment to make. So don't screw up. But hey, if you have 900 K and screw it up, you could always spend another 900 K to have it fixed. It's nice to be flush as long as you don't flush. Though some folks have stuck 900 K up their nose. Maybe you have 900 K because you have made it possible for them to do that? What would be another good way to do your laundry. And come out squeaky clean as long as your recordings don't have any squeaky on them. Which is why you need a competent acoustical engineer to design your space/spaces/places and place. Add acoustical engineers don't install equipment nor do they recommend any equipment. And if any of your engineers have said that they like using Mackie's, go find another engineer. You don't want to waste 900 K on anybody recommending that stuff. I'm not kidding!

Just remember some of the best studios in the country and around the world rely upon consoles and other equipment that is 30-40 years old. And there's a reason for that. There is a respected studio in NYC that has a 1980s vintage Neve. But he really wants my 1970s vintage Neve console. And there's a reason for that. Some folks want to go out and purchase a brand-new Lamborghini but others would rather have a fully restored Duesenberg. And there's a reason for that. I don't own any junky equipment. And there's a reason for that. Though I do own some modern day, purpose built, digital multitrack machines and got rid of my Ampex MM 1200-24. And there's a reason for that. And that's because I did not have the cash on hand to have both. But Irish I did because I wouldn't have gotten rid of the Ampex MM 1200-24. Especially since I would love to be tracking through my MM 1200-24 while passing it directly to the digital multitrack in real time. And there's a reason for that. Of course you might want to opt for a Studer A-800 with Clasp. And there's a reason for that.

And if you don't know all of these reasons why, you're really not ready to just willy-nilly build a studio for stupid friends that think a Mackie is just fine. Because the reasons there are only for the stupidly stupid. I'm not kidding.

Everybody here at Recording.org knows that I never kid around even though I've also been a standup comic. But there's a reason for that.

I couldn't be more serious... so I won't be.
Mx. Remy Ann David