Studio build->Economics, Good sound and personal enjoyment.

[Paul999]

So I read some of another thread that was closed on this subject and only realized that it was closed after writing a war and peace response. I don't want to open up a closed thread or cause problems. I do want to offer an opinion for a guy that is carving out a living in this business like many others here are.


Here is my almost humble opinion. We have three topics. Economics, good sound and personal enjoyment.


Econonomics


When starting a studio these days, for money, economics rules. I can only charge so much per project and therefore this puts a ceiling on what I can spend. It is a creative confinment that can make people be more creative. I think making a small drum room, as mentioned in another thread, is brilliant. If you can pull out adequate tones for your clients in a small drum room you just gained a huge economic advantage. I lucked out and landed an old mechanics garage that is huge and I have converted it to a studio. Economically I would have been retarded to build new. I did the numbers a thousand ways and it never paid to build new compared to renovating an existing building.


Good sound


Clients want two things when they come to me. A studio experience and good sound. The studio experience is everything from seeing the stuff they expect to see based on videos they watched on youtube and what they imagined. This is for inexperienced studio goers. For experienced studio players I make sure I give them the best studio experience. This is not about the lounge etc. it is about making sure their vision is front and Center. This leads to good sound. If you have a sales pitch and killer sound you don't need a huge room. You can quote the "small drum room story" about Phil Collins "in the air tonight".


We are in the trenches here. If you choose, because of economics, to run your studio out of a house, mobile truck, garage, office building or in the middle of a circus you can get awesome sound. Multi platinum albums have happened in every concivable environment. Choose one that fits economically and build your skills, acoustics and sales pitch to match.


Personal enjoyment


Starting a studio is a sure fire way to guarantee you'll never get to record what you want. You'll record what comes in the door. Because of who you are you'll like most of it but it is different when you don't have control. It is something that creeps into your psyche over the years. During the nineties I played in a ton of country bands because they paid I learned to love country but it changed who I was not following my own creative flow. Maybe for the better maybe not. I'll never know. I can tell you that if you are in this for personal enjoyment use something else to make money and record what you want.


I make a good living. I work a minimum of 80 hours per week and often way more. If I could work a regular job for 35-40 hours and then spend 40 hours recording what I want I'd be recording 40 more hours per week following pure passion then I do now. Somehow people think that making a living at recording is what it takes to be legit. In my world a good recording makes you legit.

[MadMax]

Paul, I agree...

It's a shame that the original poster on that subject/thread is a bit too sensitive to the discussion of a drum room or drum sounds to not see past the fact that while I (and others) express their opinion about my/their facility, that no two folks in this industry are going to want or need the exact same thing... as it would have been really nice to help in seeing him develop a studio plan and execute it.

Virtually everyone in the industry agrees that the days of the new large studio complex being essential, are over. That means that it's the small studios are all that are essentially producing the majority of the music out there... and will continue that way for a long time to come.

To the point of economics... IMHO, there are actually two main philosophies of the new breed/generation of studios and studio builders/owners; "Build it and they will come." and "This place ain't big/good enough enough for the amount of work I have."

If you're in the former mindset, you see studios being built (like mine) that are based upon the reality that the studio will most likely NEVER pay for itself, and you see more attention being spent on things such as purpose built rooms and the aesthetics/creature comforts.

In the latter philosophy, there are tighter constraints on the economics involved, as the facility MUST pay for itself as quickly as possible.

Neither philosophy is right, neither one is wrong as they both meet the needs of the investor.

It's my humble opinion that latter group is at a disadvantage, but only financially. There may be some aspect of a studio that they wish they could have, but cannot justify investing in. This is why it's so terribly important to get the best bang for their bucks as possible, by trimming whatever fat they can from the build, and/or using their space as efficiently as possible.

Efficient usage of space and a well thought out plan directly tie in with your point about good sound.

AFAIK, a "bad sounding room" is not usually a goal except in the Foley world, so lets "assume" that a given studio has "good" room(s). If you deliver to the clients what you want, and what the client wants... then you've done good... regardless of what the room actually sounds like.

Which leads to the personal enjoyment of working in a studio... if the clients are happy... then the studio personnel should be happy.

To the point of the overall direction that the other thread took...

Anyone taking on the task of planning and building a studio must first realize that physics are involved, and you cannot defy certain things in the physical world such as highways with heavy commercial traffic, airports, railways and the like.

[edit]See Rod's sticky: READ THIS BEFORE YOU POST [/edit]

If you record music in location(s) where these things come into play, (and I do have those to contend with when I'm on a remote location recording), you either have to live with them or you will need to address how to eliminate/minimize their effects/influence.

After that, it's up to the investor to determine a budget, find a location that suits their needs within that budget and THEN develop a strategy that fits their needs within that budget.

It's that simple...

[DonnyAir]

One thing I would add to this very well written post is this...

If you are hoping to use your own studio to record your own stuff, well....


I ran a commercial studio for over twenty years. I also put in those 80+ hours a week. I recorded everybody and everything - country, blues, rock, pop, jazz, orchestral, fusion, dixieland, gospel (both R&B and Southern), I recorded tin whistles, bagpipes, didgeridoos, bells, blocks.... you name it... and when I wasn't doing that, I was analyzing tapes for the county prosecutor, or designing sounds for a toy company, or helping some poor tone-deaf guy write a song for his wife on their first anniversary. And when I wasn't doing those things, I was doing the books, placing orders for stock, talking to yellow pages ad reps, paying bills, making deposits, In short, I ran a studio that recorded everyone and everything.... but myself.

There simply wasn't enough time... and at the end of a 18 hour day, knowing I had to be back in the studio with maybe 4 hours of sleep, it left almost zero time for myself, my own music.

I had a close friend who once told me "you're like a man dying of thirst while standing in the middle of a crystal clear mountain stream.." and she was right.

All around me were the fruits of my labor and sweat, the coolest processors, mics, instruments, etc., and I had no time to use them myself, because I spent every waking moment chasing the almighty dollar from clients, and, lending my own creativity to those clients, leaving little creativity left over for my own artistic pursuits.

So if you think you're going to have time to record that album you've always wanted to record, be prepared to lock the doors, shut off the sign outside, take the phones off the hook, and take a beating financially. ;)

IMHO, of course.

-d.

[Space]

" as it would have been really nice to help in seeing him develop a studio plan and execute it."

I have heard his work. It might not come under the same logical need of room>rooms work>keep up the good rooms.

I agree with whoever that other poster was in that there are things that have taken place thru the decades where great music was made in less than adequate rooms with less than adequate gear but still proved, by virtue of technique won the battle.

The strict attention to rooms and economics is where we are in this time of life. Is the room at fault? How good does a room have to be, really to produce a good recording?

A good friend of mine recorded what would be the catalyst CD for a major label act in a large (large is good) tracking room, with a train track within 50 feet, no isolation no treatment to verify, ditto on the control room.

It isn't only gear, I get it, especially with the want of so many young people involved in the mix. What I do as a supporter to these persons is to help them build a more correct room, but that is not without some attention to your need to know your gear.

Damn the economics, if anyone in this room knows of what I speak, that would be Max

I accept that there are things going on around me that do not have anything to do with a room that I helped develop. There are hardware applications that are helping the engineer to be a better listener....with or with out a room.

I will go back to sleep now...

[bigtree]

Paul, I agree...

It's a shame that the original poster on that subject/thread is a bit too sensitive to the discussion of a drum room or drum sounds to not see past the fact that while I (and others) express their opinion about my/their facility, that no two folks in this industry are going to want or need the exact same thing... as it would have been really nice to help in seeing him develop a studio plan and execute it.

Good to see you here Paul,

Space, you can open the thread if you want and if you think it will go well.

Max, I locked it down because it looked like you were going to come unglued after I asked for a track of yours to mix, I would love to "take the room out of your mix".
I'd love to keep that thread going if it stayed on track and in fact, Paul is one of the people I know doing a similar design I would do as well. That I mentioned in that thread a few times along with Jeff

The original poster didn't want to put Max on the spot but it needed to be done to prove that you don't need a large studio like yours or any set size to make great recordings. Although it helps but I would still remove the room in most cases after what I am discovering. I'm being sensitive for your sake Max. I'd love to demonstrate what a control room and great gear can do to a recording done in a studio that I feel is overkill now. That would be your studio or even larger.
The vibe we get is everything and what I was saying from the beginning. But didn't want to keep going on that and wanted to talk about a smaller build and what I do . Which kept going in circles pointing out what I do could not be accomplished without effecting the performance. I felt it would be very interesting ( and still do) at the end of that thread to do a demonstration rather than to keep going in circles with disbelieve. You then appeared to come unglued.

[bigtree]

I opened the thread:

Max, its started going in circles here:

Starting a new recording studio, what would you do if you were me, how do you survive

blowing the fuse and putting words into my mouth here: Starting a new recording studio, what would you do if you were me, how do you survive

Just so you know, I am actually having a lot of fun with this! I am concerned it is Max that is being too sensitive and therefore chose to lock it down before it all went sideways.

I would love to show you exactly what I am able to do Max. If you gave me one of your mix's I think it would be very interesting.

[MadMax]

Chris,

First and foremost, in the middle of your thread, YOU asked for how do we each make a living/survive in this industry where we are... That's ALL I was conveying. Nothing more, nothing less. This is the problem when you start straying from the nuts and bolts of the design/build aspects of a studio build. So, I don't understand at all how you can say I took the thread off it's rails or started to go in circles.

I just responded to what MY MARKET wants, and DICTATES to ME what that market will utilize and provide me-with paying clients when I decided to build my studio... I thought I made that very clear in my studio build thread several years ago... and added that to the thread when YOU asked for that kind of input. (And even prefaced it here: Starting a new recording studio, what would you do if you were me, how do you survive

Please don't say you've put me on the spot, as you haven't... nor can you. I'd love to give you one of my mixes, but unfortunately I cannot. I don't have production control over anything that I could give you... that would be up to the artists who have already decided on the drum sounds chosen by the artists, whether they are willing to let someone else have a crack at their music... which is doubtful for the most part, as they've already chosen what THEY wanted for THEIR music that THEY'VE produced, and two have already said an emphatic "NO". I WILL NOT violate the legal agreement between my studio and it's clients, but I'll ask a couple more of them if I can send you a toon or two. If I get a go ahead, I'll PM you.

Professionally, I could really give a rat's butt about whether you can do something with my tracks or anyone else'. You want help with a studio design/build... follow Rod's sticky and I'm sure you'll end up getting all the help you want... that's what I thought this forum was for.

I really don't know what you're goal is, nor does anyone else here, if you don't at least convey some real world numbers regarding this new potential studio build. It's your space, and your build... not mine or anyone else'... nor is it mine or anyone's business to tell you you're right or wrong to make a room a certain way, other than to point out design flaws or execution flaws that will be counter to what you want.... again... nothing more, nothing less.

[bigtree]

Oh my, Max, you really need to calm down. This is exactly why I locked that other thread.

As I said twice ( now 3 times) , "I know what I need to do now, thank you for your help."

No disrespect intended, Max, but I didn't completely come to this realization until AFTER I listened to your tracks, online. Hearing walls ( in a negative aspect) even in a build like yours, solidified my direction.
My main concern from the beginning of that thread was to build a studio with a large drum room or not, which I feel as of right now, is not necessary anymore. Don't ask why if you don't want to learn the truth.

Cheers!

[Kapt.Krunch]

The room is EVERYTHING! You could NEVER sell anything made in a place as improperly-treated, cheap and ill-suited for music as the laughing-stock vision of the guy who ran the one in this video:

Motown Studio A - YouTube

Kapt.Krunch

[bigtree]

GoingCrazy.jpg

hehe, I love that picture!

Here we go again lol round and round we go. And why I stopped the last thread because it goes back to rudimentary dialog. But now some of you are getting it, so we wait and see.

Summery

We can't fix Stupid completely. We obviously need to record the stuff right and not record a Rock Band in a empty closet. You all are restricting your end result, not aware that you can fix %$^ like this and the %$^ that needs fixing is usually the drums and bass. I say in most of your studios. Don't believe it.

Lets hear a mix from someone here? Post your work and we'll have truthful talk rather than all this hear say and attitude. But don't do it if you don't want to hear the truth.

Why? because those two area's of a mix, from where I sit today, are the most significant area's that kill your mix. I can take the most horrendous vocal and still get it to sit in a mix that has great bass and open sounding drums. But, bad drums and bass, are bad news. They will kill you every time.

So I say, most recording of drums in your studios will never sound as open and great as what I can do in the end. So, I ask, what did you spend all that extra money on a drum room and gear for? It will never get you to the top of your game. Never. You think so? I say not today. Maybe you don't care as Max has said. Then we are done here.

Maybe the highest level studios are safe (but I doubt that too). Not for commercial music. You are all dreaming if you think you can compete if your drums suck. But, it is fun to dream so, what are we talking about on RO, dreaming or pro level recording and big drums and big bass? I'm talking pro level and commercial mix's.

Okay, chuckle. I say Bad for you, good for me Or good for you if you know someone like me or better yet, if you do what I do, you are safe and on your way, if you are interested in better or great that is. And that is for all of you to discover. I'm just passing the info here.

And this even means mix's in a nice studio like Max's, which took me until a week ago to really trust my results.
So where does this leave us now? This forum starts to conflict with the hype $ of money he or any of you spent for the SIZE needed to get a final commercial sounding product.
I say the studio I would build now can be done for half or maybe even 2/3rd of the costs. As Jeff or Paul are doing right now. You guys all have it made. That's all I need.

To continue on...
Actually Kapt, I could improve this Motown drum sound by 500% if I got a hold of the session. Guaranteed!

Cheers!