25 musicians in circle...

Discussion in 'Location Recording' started by taro, Feb 3, 2006.

  1. taro

    taro Guest


    Do you think this can be interesting ?

    i did things i like with a few musicians/singers surrounding 2 mics in blumlein, but how would it sound with many more musicians and vocals ?! (distance according to 'natural loudness' of the instruments — from loud brass to so quiet sanza...:))... Well, i did it once with 14 musicians in half circle (actually 150-160°) and even if it is beyond the 90° angle, i found the sound ok... but how would it be in full circle?... (or, would it be better using MS ? (with omni for M))... (all this asssuming the room sounds good, of course !)...

    thanks in advance,

  2. Simmosonic

    Simmosonic Active Member

    Go for the MS with omni M, methinks... Then your only decision is where to draw the border between left and right sides. Better yet, use a Soundfield and sort it all out later.

    If you can't get a Soundfield, create a pseudo-Soundfield (horizontal plane only) by placing two bidirectionals in Blumlein but with an omni in between them. Record to three tracks, and sort it out later. Once you decide which bidirectional is going to be your S mic, you can add the other bidirectional with the omni to create the M signal, allowing you to create any M response from omni to bidirectional. You could even mess with the polarity and balance of all three mics to focus on different instruments at different times throughout the performance.

    Lots of options that way, but you'd want to get the height just right... And use mics with small physical profiles so you can get them as coincident as possible.

    Um, maybe that's using a hammer to kill a fly. Perhaps it would be better to use a couple of spaced omnis...
  3. Cucco

    Cucco Distinguished Member

    A VERY effective technique. Works best when the fly is on the china cabinet....

    I can't imagine a scenario where this would sound terribly natural, but it sure would sound interesting.

    Telarc kinda did the same thing though for their canons on the 1812 SACD. They used the Neumann KU-100 dummy head mounted in the middle of a circle of canons. You could try something similar - a Jecklin of sorts. Perhaps two PZMs back to back might work too. (with some kind of seperator...)

  4. BigRay

    BigRay Guest

  5. Cucco

    Cucco Distinguished Member

    I can't express enough just how much I detest the SASS-P. It's one of the least musical microphones I've ever heard......Sorry.

    The local college here uses one religiously on their wind ensemble and choral recordings and they sound like ass.

  6. BigRay

    BigRay Guest

    Sarcasm, J...Sarcasm. I dont care for it either......:lol: :cool: :lol: :lol:

    :cool: :D
  7. Simmosonic

    Simmosonic Active Member

    Well, I think the PZM per se is an interesting mic that can offer solutions where other mics can't. However...

    My first conscious experience with direct-to-stereo recordings came from the SASS-P demonstration CD many years ago - in fact, I think it is fair to say it was the disc that really got me interested in the potential of a direct-to-stereo recording rig. I thought it (SASS-P demo disc) was amazing, especially since I had been using PZMs in the studio for a long time and was quite fond of them. I remember being very impressed with the SASS-P disc, and impressing many of my friends with it, too. We used to play the Harley-Davidson track nice and loud through ATC SCM50s and be gobsmacked with how real it felt and sounded. (Play it again! Go on! Play it again!!) And the fireworks, and the thunder in the forest (or wherever it was). BUT, for some reason we NEVER played the music tracks.

    Some time later, when I was taking my first steps towards putting together my own direct-to-stereo rig, I revisited that CD and listened to the few music tracks on it. Then I knew why we never used to play them. At the same time, I listened to the works of Chesky, Water Lily Acoustics and Opus 4 and came to three conclusions:

    1) The SASS-P was not something I liked for music;

    2) I realised that all of the direct-to-stereo recordings I liked were made with Blumleiin technique;

    3) The SASS-P was not something I liked for music.

    So, that settled that. I ended up with a Royer SF12 and found myself in the basement of a very tall and dark building with no elevator and a dim torch.

    [Apologies for yet another long-winded post. The Seven Party Alliance has called a seven day 'bandh' (public strike) here in Kathmandu, which started yesterday. Just about everything is closed; no shops, very few restaurants, almost non-existent internet. So, tonight is my first real chance on the internet for two days. Aaaaarrrggghhhh! I think I've got the internet equivalent of verbal diahorrea... ASCII diahorrea?]
  8. taro

    taro Guest

    Hi !

    Thanks for your replies.

    I'll try the MS with omni, the AB, the back to back PZM as well (on a table put on its side or something like that?! :), my old PZM31s are a bit noisy maybe but sound good to my amateur ears...)... The room acoustic will tell which is the best, i figure...

    soundnfield : the mic of my dream!... aah! when the st350 will be available?!!!... but the waiting list is probably quite long !... :) But this mic let me think i should invest in a 4 tracks portable recorder instead of a 2tracks one... 744t ?... R4 ?... MiniR ?... learnt in a french forum sonosax thinks about doing the MiniR compatible with the st350... woaw ! that would be the smallest high quality surround field recording system in the world ! 8)

    anyway, 25 muscians in circle, in surround... that was the original idea actually...;) but who listen to music in surround ?... (well, i do !:D)

    or maybe i should do everything in mono ?... ;)
  9. ghellquist

    ghellquist Member

    I am not sure about the effects really. But it should be fun testing.

    As I have acess to an SF24 I would put that in the middle and add a good omni mic as well. A blumlein pair plus an omni makes for a lot of interesting alternatives in post production.

    By simply summing and inverting you can emulate 4 back-to-back cardioids if you like to, two forward and two backwards.

  10. Thomas W. Bethel

    Thomas W. Bethel Well-Known Member

    I agree 100%. Crown tried to get the college where I worked to invest in one or more of these "microphones" I got a chance to try it on a number of different ensembles and solo performances, Lucky for me I also recorded the concert with my normal microphone setup because the recording from the SASS was TERRIBLE and NO ONE liked the sound. When Crown could not sell us a couple they tried to give us one for the publicity. My boss took my advice and told them NO!

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