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3 - 1 micsetup

Discussion in 'Microphones' started by Nutti, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. Nutti

    Nutti Active Member

    Hi!

    When micing a 4x12 guitarcab, is it safe to go 3 to 1 configuration without worring about phasecancellations? So if I slam a sm57 at the grill I could set a pg27 condenser x3 the distance and just push record? Do I need to have them on the same speaker or can I use two diffrent ones on a 4x12 cab?

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  2. pcrecord

    pcrecord Don't you want the best recording like I do ? Well-Known Member

    How long does it take to switch the phase and check anyway??
    Also, what tells you that you choose the right placement ?
    Micing needs a minimum of time and attention. Play and move the mics around you'd be surprise how the sound change with a few inches of difference..
    If you take the time, you might rediscover your sound and choose different mic placement depending on the music style of the song.. or just to have a different texture when recording multiple guitar tracks. 1x3 is a starter point.

    If it's your cab and it never moves in the room and you well mesured you last optimum setup, I'd understand just placing the mics and record...
     
  3. Nutti

    Nutti Active Member

    I'm sorry...

    I thought about this in a demo situation when time is limited to a weekend. So in that situation I would just like to put down the mics at a standard position pointing to the middle between edge/cone.

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  4. pcrecord

    pcrecord Don't you want the best recording like I do ? Well-Known Member

    You don't know how often a demo became an album here ! ;)

    People judge you by what they hear, demo or album. I'd do my best everything time!

    But if you've already made à choice, why ask? ;)
    Or if your so hurry, why not only one mic?
    (Just teasing)!!


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  5. Nutti

    Nutti Active Member

    Yeah I hear you, altough it would require that the artists got talents from the first place to be capable to end up on something good :D I just wanted to make sure I got the 1x3 technique correct so that I can get a decent sound to begin with.

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  6. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    The 3:1 rule is meaningless when one of the mics is right up against the grille of the cabinet, as 3 x 0 = 0. If you want to record a second mic, I would forget about the 3:1 rule and put the PG27 substantially further away from the cabinet than you might think, so that you get the benefit of recording some of the wonderful ambience in your acoustically-treated room (or otherwise).

    The alternative to this is to record just the SM57 close to the grille plus the direct signal from the guitar through a DI box. You can then replay the direct track back into the amplifier through a re-amp box and experiment with different mic positions using the same recorded track each time. When mixing, you can try blending the 57 with various different re-amped tracks. Here's a write-up about re-amping, but there's a lot more on the web.
     
  7. bouldersound

    bouldersound Real guitars are for old people. Well-Known Member

    The 3:1 rule is meaningless with only one source. It applies to the placement of multiple mics on multiple sources to minimize cross bleed.
     
  8. pcrecord

    pcrecord Don't you want the best recording like I do ? Well-Known Member

    Sorry boulder,

    2 sources can't be out of phase!
    1 source, 2 mics could be out of phase if distanced improperly


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  9. bouldersound

    bouldersound Real guitars are for old people. Well-Known Member

    Any difference in distance will result in phase shift. The degree of phase shift will depend on the absolute difference in distance (and the given frequency), not the ratio of the distances.

    Distance ratios have nothing directly to do with phase, they affect the relative volume of different elements in the signals (e.g. desired signal vs. bleed).
     
  10. bouldersound

    bouldersound Real guitars are for old people. Well-Known Member

    Two sources in two mics can be out of phase. The bleed from source A into mic B will be out of phase with the signal from source A into mic A. But if the level of the bleed is reduced then the amount of comb filtering from the phase interaction is reduced. That is exactly what 3:1 is for.

    Two mics will be out of phase with any difference in distance from the source. The ratio of the distances doesn't matter, the absolute difference in distance does.
     
  11. bouldersound

    bouldersound Real guitars are for old people. Well-Known Member

    Here's what 3:1 is for. B should always be at least 3 times A. This lowers the bleed by 9dB relative to the desired sound. If one source is louder than the other then you may have to increase the ratio. Directional mics allow more flexibility, but at lower frequencies they're omnidirectional so 3:1 is still a useful guide.

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  12. Nutti

    Nutti Active Member

    Fantastic, so I have gotten the whole thing wrong from the beginning. So phase issues on a guitarcab using multiple mics can not be adressed with the 3:1 rule.

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  13. bouldersound

    bouldersound Real guitars are for old people. Well-Known Member

    I usually just move the far mic's track on the timeline to compensate for the difference in distance.
     
  14. BobRogers

    BobRogers Well-Known Member

    My $.02. If you really like the sound of your room, put the room mic where it sounds best and then time align the two mics with either a digital delay or just nudging one of the tracks. If you don't have a great sounding, acoustically treated room, ditch the room mic and add a touch of reverb and delay to the close mic. Since you were looking for "quick and dirty" in the first place, that's probably the best choice anyway. Simple, effective, works with any equipment or set up.
     

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