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65hz to 50hz

Discussion in 'Recording' started by lcswoosh05, Dec 19, 2010.

  1. lcswoosh05

    lcswoosh05 Active Member

    My current monitors frequency response is from 65hz to 23kHz now my question is that will I have alot of difference if I had a monitor that has a frequency response of 50hz to 23kHz? Basicly I have a compact two way 4in monitors and I was wondering that if mine was a 5in woofer instead would you hear a difference on lower end much in general. I basicly needed to know is going from 65hz to 50hz noticeable if both speakers are the same line of series and type just one is bigger woofer.
     
  2. Big K

    Big K Well-Known Member

    I didn't know they make them so tiny..
    ;-)

    What can I say... There is certain important data missing. The frequency range of a speaker should be stated , say, 50 Hz to 20 kHz with no more then -2 dB (or what ever vallue).
    If you omit the -x db, the range could be stated like 20 Hz to 40kHz...if you know what I mean. The box gives off a tone at that frequency but there is no saying if it isn't only a quarter of volume left.
    Other thing: the max SPL (Sound pressure level ) of the box and its sensitivity ( how much power do you have to feed to get a certain SPL).

    Now, your monitors....Of course it makes a difference what size the woofer has.
    There is a direct relationship between the the size and the sound, SPL, frequency range and usability. If you plan on doing anything else with them as hooking them up to your PC..
    I advice against it. Even 8 inch woofers are rather limiting. With 4" or 5" there is no saying what the music will sound like on "real" speakers. There is so much going on below that range that you can't tweak properly.
    The best I can say is: safe up more cash and buy better monitors. You can't expect any decent, valid bass from a 4" or 5" speaker. You might even consider to buy active monitors. You safe yourself a bit of trouble, there.
    If you still want to purchase those crates, take the bigger one...
    But believe me, still you will waste time to train your ears to correct frequency responses, balancing, EQing, etc., and it is hard to get the wrong off your brain later.
     
  3. lcswoosh05

    lcswoosh05 Active Member

    I guess I did forget to put that the 4in woofer I have is from 65 Hz - 23 kHz, -10 dB. The 5in is from 50 Hz - 23 kHz, -10 dB.

    Basicly will I hear a difference from the 4in and 5in? Both have same power handling btw just one has a bigger woofer that's all. I don't have any specs for the SPL. I just needed to know that in general can you hear the difference on the lows from 65hz to 50hz that's all.
     
  4. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Understand that @ -10db at a certain frequency that the information isnt exactly knocking out the windows. A truer measurement would be the frequencies that are flat at a given power output.

    Then theres the problems with there being no real standards to attaining these figures. Each manufacturer uses whatever means of measurement that they can substantiate. So NONE of them are the same.

    So choosing a monitor based on the size of the box, active or passive, or the listed frequency responses is like scanning a book for certain words in the dark.

    Its really best to use your ears. I know you may not be able to audition monitors, but if you can, this is the only way to REALLY determine what you need.

    Will you hear the difference in a different sized woofer in a monitor? I dont know, I cant use your ears and speculating on whether of not simply by looking at specs is a crapshoot at best.
     
  5. lcswoosh05

    lcswoosh05 Active Member

    Well I am basicly kinda like compairing any type of speakers in general that has those specs and if both speakers are the same brand and series meaning are built the same but just one has a bigger woofer is it a noticeable difference on the lower end just be having the speakers able to go low as 50hz instead of 65hz? Will just jumping from 65hz to 50hz give you very noticeable fuller sound? Or will it not be much difference?
     
  6. dvdhawk

    dvdhawk Well-Known Member

    Yes.

    You don't mention what kind of music you're doing, or make and model of speaker. But you should be theoretically shooting for as close to 20Hz as you can afford (± about 3 dB). A 10 dB variation isn't very accurate to begin with.

    Rock needs to be pretty punchy at least in the 30Hz - 40Hz range.
    Electronic music is probably even thicker below 40Hz.
    Rap music is extremely heavy at 50Hz.
    Banjo trio - not so much


    It doesn't mean you can make a good sounding track on the 4-inch. It just means by the time you hype the bass frequencies enough to make the 4-inch speakers pump - that mix will be a muddy mess on just about any other hi-fidelity monitor, stereo, car-stereo, PA, boombox. So to compensate you'll have to guess how much bass you can put in - then go listen on a dozen other systems and come back and remix it making adjustments, repeating as many times as necessary. It kinda defeats the purpose of calling them studio monitors. It can be done, but what a pain.

    If you're upgrading, and your 4-inch speakers are of a high quality - maybe a subwoofer would be in order. But it will need to be carefully balanced to be effective.

    You want something that accurately portrays the mix, not a fun-house mirror.

    Good luck.
     
  7. lcswoosh05

    lcswoosh05 Active Member

    Well I was just wondering in general on speakers that's all. But I guess I can tell you the model I' am compairing. One is the Samson MediaOne 4a monitors and one is the Samson MediaOne 5a monitors. I currently own the 4a so it has a 4in woofer and I was wondering if the 5a which has a 5in woofer would sound much fuller. I did say what was the frequency response for both speakers is and I assume you knew that the 4in one is the one that goes 65hz and the 5in goes low as 50hz. Both are 20 watts per channel and 40 watts total. I got these speakers 3 weeks agao from Sweetwater and they sell pro studio gear there. Of cource they even sell ones that cost like as high as around $5,000 each speakers but since I' am in a budget and wanted monitors I got the Samson MediaOne 4a which was $150 pair. The 5a is $200 pair so it's $50 more than the one I have.


    I' am using these in a bedroom sized home studio so I don't really need big monitors plus bigger ones costs too much for me. I do think though that the Samsons do sound really good for the price but just was wondering if having the 5in which would go low as 50hz would have more fuller sound and can play lower parts of the music better. But maybe just from 65hz to 50hz isn't that huge enough to hear the difference. I don't know.

    Well I guess you did say you can hear a difference if the speakers can go low as 50hz so maybe it is alot better since it can go lower.
     
  8. lcswoosh05

    lcswoosh05 Active Member

    Btw I do have a frequency graph that shows how flat the monitors I have and they are very flat just when it gets around 65hz it's -10db. Even at 20kHz it's still flat. When you get past 20kHz then it starts to go down from what I see. Basicly the graph is printed on the back of the right speakers which is the powered one.
     
  9. lcswoosh05

    lcswoosh05 Active Member

    I attached some pics of the specs printed on my right speakers and it even shows a freq graph. It seems like at 65hz that's where it is -10db and the rest is pretty flat upto 20kHz.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. dvdhawk

    dvdhawk Well-Known Member

    First of all, don't trust graphs, especially on budget monitors - as Davedog says they don't tell you how they arrived at that graph, or how long/how loud it can sustain that graphed response - or how much distortion it makes in the process.

    Case in point: The graphs available online on the 4a and 5a are exactly the same, both are only accurate within ±3dB down to 80Hz. If we're going to believe the graphs, then their freq. response is identical.

    It's highly unlikely they would graph out exactly the same. So something is shady right there. The physics of the bigger woofer in a bigger box would almost certainly have fuller bass.

    80Hz is two full octaves higher than the lowest note we can hear/feel. I'd want something fairly accurate at least to 50Hz, but if you're lovin the 4a's keep lovin the 4a's - and get used to comparing your mixes a dozen places until you get a feel for how they translate elsewhere.

    You gotta start somewhere, and if this is where you're at budget-wise you'll get by and eventually upgrade when you can afford to.
     
  11. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    There will not be a big difference. Go hear them and decide. The specs tell you NOTHING. They have NO WAY of comparing one to another in YOUR room with YOUR music.

    Like I said, a crap shoot to speculate.
     
  12. Big K

    Big K Well-Known Member

    Those specs are hoax. What you think is a flat response is rippled like hell. With that fat white line it can be anything up to -8 dB difference in very sensitive frequency ranges.
    Remember, +6 dB means double SPL... With such a tight budget I think you should rather try your home stereo speakers..no joke..
    As of size: size does not mean you have to play it louder. But you have more air moved even with smaller signals. And if you get to the edge of what the little speakers can deliver, they will give everything.
    but a correct image. You are, as Hawk said, into wild guessing what your sound is like and spend endless hours to double-check on other devices.
    By the time you found a way to cope with the shortcommings of the boxes, you are so spoilt that you will have a hard time to appreciate or rather recognize the qualities monitors with true linearity and clearest sound.
    Please, go and demo some of the best Monitors in your shops before you warp your ears.


    Dave is right when he says that specs don't tell you how a monitor actually sounds, but with those specs one can tell if it can sound or perform any good, at all (for this purpose)
    and if it is linear, or not. Manufacturers don't tend to be over critical with their claimes. So, it can be feared that the specs are even worse then shown....
     
  13. lcswoosh05

    lcswoosh05 Active Member

    Ok I did forget but there was a store where I live that had the MediaOne 5a so I did went there and connected my iPod and listen to my music on those speakers. Now it seems like that the 4in I have and the 5in was really alike but since it's a bigger woofer I do hear more low mid bass and low end bass. I think the 5in has little more fuller sound. But it might be because the big room it's in or how it was set up since it wasn't sitting on top of a desk. I have mine set up on the top part of my desk as where I normal put bigger speakers on. But eather way it seems like both speakers are alike but just has little more fuller sound since it fills the low mids and low lows better. It isn't a huge difference at all on the two though. But maybe in the future I would upgrade to it since after all it does have a 5in instead of a 4in woofer.

    One thing I did notice about the 4in and 5in woofer is that if you look carefuly it seemed like the 5in woofer had less width butyl rubber so that means that the cones don't move as much as the 4in. I think the reason why they did this is since both speakers have same amp and the 5in doesn't need to have the cones to move more since it doesn't need to be able to put more than 20 watts each. The 4in is smaller and has smaller cones so I think it needs to be able to move more to be able to reach 20 watts each without having distortion.


    Btw that store was selling the 3a, 4a, and the 5a monitors so I was able to do a A and B test on each so that was nice.


    I use to own the 3a and I did sell it few years agao but that was since it didn't have enough low end and when I listened to the 3a today I did notice it really lacked the low end since it's only a 3in woofer. But for a 3in it did sound really nice a bright clear highs and mids. Just need a subwoofer to fill in the low end stuff. But I think all of the MediaOne series are great speakers. Just that the 5a costs $200 so it's kinda expensive. The 3a is $100 pair The 4a is $150 pair and as I said for 5a it's $200 pair.

    I can say that the 4a monitors have much more bass than the 3a that's forsure. Since the 3a are from 80 Hz - 23 kHz, -10 dB
     
  14. lcswoosh05

    lcswoosh05 Active Member

    I was lucky to find a place that had a display of them. Most of the time I can't find any places that displays the monitors I' am interested in. But eather was I think for the prices that these monitors are selling for is a good deal and they sound good for the price.
     
  15. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    I prefer a 6" inch or in rare cases an 8" for near field monitors. Anything less than six is so deficient in low mid/bass response as to not be accurate enough for mixing. In my opinion of course. A sub is not the same thing. A secondary set of larger mid fields are very handy to have as well.
     
  16. lcswoosh05

    lcswoosh05 Active Member

    I know there is a speaker called the KRK V4 and that is a higher end 4in two way speaker system but those are also a 4in woofer like mine. I remember hearing the V4 when I was in Japan and they had very similar bass as mine since both are 4in woofers. Eatherway if 4in woofers are too small for monitors they would not make them though like the KRK V4 or the Samson 4a that I have. I think those monitors are for like smaller rooms like my bedroom.
     
  17. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    I hope you realize that most of the lower end speaker manufacturers do NOT make their own speakers. The are made to spec (in some cases) and installed by little old chinese ladies on an assembly line. Sometimes they are simply bought from a wholesaler in huge lots and SOMETIMES they're not even the same manufacturer from model to model in the same product line.

    The size of the speaker has some relation to frequency response, of course, speaker box dimensions a LOT more, as well as material the box is made of. Another determining factor ESPECIALLY in powered monitors is the power amp and its ability to handle transients cleanly and completely.

    While I will agree on some parts of this discussion, I will point out that higher end monitors in small sizes and used as near-fields can give plenty of lowend that will translate well on all other systems. I have Genelec 1029's and they do quite well for low end. I DO have a sub but mostly as a room filler when playing back.

    Its really all about the room, the positioning of the listening area, the volume, and to some degree the type of material being presented.

    Since you have a place to listen to monitors, take your iPod and listen to some really highend monitors and then learn more about what makes or breaks a speakers abilities. Its not always size.....AND all of those speakers in that budget range are going to be lacking in so many ways.

    But you wont know this until you become trained in hearing.
     
  18. Big K

    Big K Well-Known Member

    Aaahhh, can we move this to Home Recording section?
    I get kinda sea sick when I hear more about full sounding 3" and 4" bass sound...
    I don't want to be offensive, but I would not want those cans, not even in my clock radio.

    I accept we are talking about entry level, but enough is enough...
    Sorry...
     
  19. lcswoosh05

    lcswoosh05 Active Member

    So are you basicly saying that the KRK V4 are going to have much better sound on lower end even both have same size cones? I did hear the V4 once in Japan and they did yes sound good and I think had little more power but they were really alike to the Samson 4a that I have since both did not have much low end as bigger monitors. But eather way I don't need big monitors since it will get too boomy and loud then. I don't have a big place so having 6in monitors or more will be way too loud. I have when I was in Japan heard higher end monitors too but they were like the 6in ones and yes they did sound alot better overall but I don't really need those plus I don't have money for them. All I can say is nicer monitors cost alot of $$$. I seem some but they are big of cource but costing like $5,000 each. I guess I would say that if I had enough money to buy nice monitors I would probley buy something like a brand new KRK V4 or something around that size. I hear people say that KRK monitors are good from websites I seen. I think there is a newer version of the V4 like the VXT4 and they are also 4in woofers. But I see the Rokit 5 monitors and I think those are more cheaper so those might be good. But eather way I don't have money for those so I' am stuck with bidget monitors like the Samsons I have or I can get the most is like the 5a that has a 5in woofer.
     
  20. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    I moved it.

    Too much yapping on about things that arent all that important and are budget to boot.

    Please pay attention to the forum you're posting in. $200 monitors arent high-end nor are they 'pro'.
     

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