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Adults v. kids

Discussion in 'Recording' started by freakydave, Nov 5, 2005.

  1. freakydave

    freakydave Guest

    The exchange between jp22 (who doesn't sound 22 yet) and McCheese in an adjacent topic caused that topic to be blocked I believe, as it was getting rather dirty (Expert suggestions on an advanced guitar recording settup). I believe our field has much better to offer.

    For the record McCheese was quite correct, from an electronics viewpoint, that compression is very much present in a clipped audio signal. However, one of the nice things about guitars and amps is that the distortion/overdrive is not just class B type clipping, it has a harmonic content and charactor all it's own, which varies as widely as do sunsets, from amp to amp, setting to setting, musician style to style, with purposeful feedbacks, etc., which most engineers in-the-Fourier-analysis-know, would never compress in any outboard equipment if it was at all avoidable. Amp design has stages, and overdrive is almost always initiated at the left side of the signal chain (schematically speaking), with subsequent stages left to amplify cleanly. It is at these stages that additional charactor of the amp's sound is added, as well as at the end of the chain, colorations of the speaker itself.

    This is an endless topic, but one that should be of utmost importance to all engineers, young and old, and as in any professional field the young should learn from the old. I believe education is key to the propagation of proper technique. I also think us older school real engineers can use help staying up to date on new technology by not "dissing" the young and naive so quickly.

    So, jp22, if you read this, don't be so quick to throw a compressor into a guitar chain. Also, you could benifit from a proper electronics course geared towards electronics engineering for communications systems, which has the best overall electronics cirriculum in general.
  2. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Excellent point.

    Did you read the whole thread?

    What part of JP's total stupidity didnt you get?

    BTW. He was locked and banned because he turned out to be am angry homophobic racial bigot.

    Real discussions about all things audio do not get the plug pulled.

    And yes, there should be a return to 'mentoring'.....It aint gonna happen, so all the youngsters who already know it all will have to play alone until they get it right.
  3. freakydave

    freakydave Guest

    Thanks, Davedog. My mentor from back when would have banned me from his studio for an attitude like that, even though I knew it all also.

    Anyway, (and this is more for the up-and-comers) I believe that any serious recording engineer will be interested enough in the field to acquire the electronic and acoustic knowledge necessary to properly, faithfully and efficiently transfer acoustic (or electronic) audio information from a source (guitar amp, sax, singer, etc) to the end listener through recorded media. The pro engineer will have studied such material as basic acoustic physics (Design of Good Acoustics and Noise Control, by J.E. Moore, is a good starter) for an understanding of natural compression, harmonic distortion, etc. Since electronics is an emulation of nature (in that anything a circuit can do nature already could) a course in audio circuit design and application helps engineers understand the purpose of the gadgets that some are so fond of abusing. For example, the purpose of a compressor is not to make an overly dynamic guitar fit onto a computer track, but to soften dynamic inconsistancies in an otherwise good performance to name one legitimate purpose, a polish rather than a hammer and saw.

    I really hope some of the new breed are paying attention, I know a few are, and I would much rather remain optimistic. But somehow I don't get that impression from some. Yes, jp22 is a total moron and will forever create junk and give the rest a bad name, but take heart that there is still enough energy, charisma, and intelligence to keep the art alive.
  4. dwoz

    dwoz Guest

    Is it just me, or is "freakydave" actually a bbs-bot, programmed to string audio engineering jargon into plausible-sounding sentences?

    in other words, a troll?

    or is this just another example of the utter misinformation that is offered up around here by well-meaning but misguided souls?

    I mean, :

    What the heck is that???? You're not talking about crossover distortion, OBVIOUSLY...so then WHAT are you talking about? With all due respect, its nonsense, and it isn't the only thing in that post that is non-sequitous gibberish.

    what are you on about, my friend?

  5. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    The subject line, 'Adults V Kids' is interesting. On forums. attitudes transend age. I noticed many years ago..that many '50 something 'year old "audiophiles" have the maturity level of spoiled brat 9 year olds, whereas often, I know a fellow that graduated high school last year, that I met 4 years ago on line, asking loudspeaker questions that has always been not only well behaved but high mannered and polite and has absorbed information like a spounge to the point..I bet he "knows more about loudspeakers than many designers that are in the business"

    People think it is damned cute to screw with professionals and ruffle feathers and deflame or act like idiots, because they are on the other side of the LCD screen where they "think they can't be touched"

    These types are despicable and are borderline internet terrorists and need to not only be banned but need to spend some time with "bubba" in the big house to figure out that life is not a container of panty hose.

    Trolls litter the entire web. Always have and always will. The best course of action is to totally ignore them. Don't put yourself on their level by playing games with assholes.

    I will professionally answer questions (even ones of seemingly trollish nature) that come around if the poster truly would like some insight from 3 decades plus of working behind mixing desks. After the answer, if it is not appreciated, then thats it for me. Methinks I should also do more of the ignoring but really, some folks simply don't know how to ask for help..that they 'truly desire' and some' hand holding' should be of order. When it gets ugly, count me out.
  6. annannienann

    annannienann Guest

    I find this "Adults Vs Kids" point very interesting been the latter of the two. I also read the first 10 pages of the legendary "jp22" (there is a link to it from the Cakewalk forums which I am a member of) thread and thought it was completely the wrong way go about things. As a 15-year-old I have always gone on forums knowing that other people on there are most old/wiser than I am in the audio field and I never criticised peoples input and have always taken corrections of my technical understand constructively.

    Also these online forums are great for people like me, I have tried to have deep meaningful conversations about recording and what not with older guys in the business but when they see at 15-year-old I have no credibility but online forums remove that prejudice and I feel people like "jp22" are abusing the free useful information that can be collected from experts.
  7. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Right on annannienann!

    BTW, that is an interesting name you have there.......
  8. annannienann

    annannienann Guest

    Yer, I know, I use it all over the web; you can find me everywhere by typing it into Google. lol I use it cos no one else is stupid enough to use it so I can have the same name everywhere.
  9. freakydave

    freakydave Guest

    Actually, the class B reference is not the best example, but it works. This refers to a radio practice to get more power in the air from a radio transmitter. It actually clips a signal about in half producing close to a square wave. Crossover distortion, (hysteresis), is from a class C amp. (I'm not making this up).

    A square wave has an infinite harmonic content. A sine wave has none. Musical instruments have somewhere in between, including mega-distortion guitar amps. Even radically clipped at the preamp stages the harmonic content is not infinite, since the tone controls, speaker, room, etc, add to and remove from the harmonic content. I was comparing purposeful "musical" distortion to "bad engineering" distortion. Dwoz knows this, but I'll refrain from unclear jargon in the future. Thanks. Carry on.
  10. dwoz

    dwoz Guest

    I'll give you another chance to check this. You feeling comfortable with that?

  11. McCheese

    McCheese Well-Known Member

    For the record, I'm 28, JP is 37, and he still lives with his mom.

    On the subject of mentoring, I wish it was still this way. 99% of my technical knowledge comes from going to school for audio production. I've gotten to sit in a few 'big-time' sessions with big name acts, mostly as a fly-on-the-wall. Other than that I read a lot. I've got shelves of books and a few years worth of EQ and Mix mags. To work under someone with years of experience would be a dream come true, but alas, I live in SE Alaska, and I know more about recording than anyone I've met up here.
  12. christian231

    christian231 Guest


    Am I missing something, or are a lot of people around here referring to clipping as if a signal is being reduced by "clipping" it in half with a compressor or sissors or something?

    Is there some other type of special clipping I've never heard of, because the only clipping I know of is the bad clipping when your signal meter goes into the red and you get distortion. I'm only an amatuer, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.
  13. annannienann

    annannienann Guest

    My understand is that clipping is a term used to describe anything that brick wall limits the amplitude of a signal. But it is probably a bit deeper than that.
  14. IIRs

    IIRs Well-Known Member

    "clipping" refers to the change in the waveform (ie: distortion) caused by exceeding the maximum amplitude of the system. A sine wave would have its peaks shaved down to a flat top for example, and, if the gain was increased enough, would eventually come to resemble a square wave.

    "brick wall limiting" is a term used for compression with a ratio of infinity:1 and instant attack (usually acheived by means of a look-ahead delay) which is designed to prevent clipping
  15. RAIN0707

    RAIN0707 Guest

    It's all about class. Obviously something this JP guy doesn't possess. Why should we care? I sure as hell don't. I realize he's coming on the message board and being a pest but it's like someone else said ignore him and be satisfied knowing that with an attitude like that he sure as hell isn't going to drum up any business for himself. Us engineers that do mixing work over the net and everything should be happy that there are tards like this out there who won't take quality business away from us and might even weed out some of the crappier projects we might have been stuck doing, hahaha sorry just something i was thinking about and laughing over...
  16. maintiger

    maintiger Well-Known Member

    Obviously the JP22 thread struck a chord and resonated, otherwise it would have not gotten 110,000 page views (and counting) It is truly a shame that it turned homophobic, otherwise it would probably still be going. I think JP22 personified, among other things, the aspiring-wannabe-audio-person-who doesn't-have-a-clue-but thinks-he-knows-it-all. There is certainly nothing wrong with inexperience, we all started from that place. there is also nothing wrong with a little cockiness, it is a necesity in any field if you are to get somewhere. But the JP22's of the world are typical; like I said those who have no clue but think they know it all and spew nonsense out of their mouths in this internet brave world of ours. This is the only reason he got an audience, because it was so lame. Made even the inexperienced feel like an expert compared to him. 8)
  17. IIRs

    IIRs Well-Known Member

    I might never have found this forum were it not for the JP22 thread.. :wink:
  18. maintiger

    maintiger Well-Known Member

    yeah, we got a lotta new people out of it so it was beneficial to our forum in that way
  19. dwoz

    dwoz Guest

    as long as the swelling refugee population doesn't choke the infrastructure.

    If there's too much mucking to do and not enough shovels, so to speak...

  20. heh heh

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