1. Register NOW and become part of this fantastic knowledge base forum! This message will go away once you have registered.

All that Jazz

Discussion in 'Recording' started by sign, Jan 19, 2002.

  1. sign

    sign Guest

    Hi guys

    Lately I have quite some jazz bands and of course it's kind of 'live' recording.

    The only problem I have is the upright bass, the bands don't like to have the bassist in a separate room and I must admit they play better when they all are in one room.

    The upright bass is a real PITA, not when I put it in another room and mic it with a Neumann in omni, but together with the other instruments it's a problem.

    I really would love to have some good advise from you guys and gals.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. sign

    sign Guest

    Anybody who has experience with a very small mic like Sennheiser MKE2 inside the bass?
     
  3. Bear's Gone Fission

    Bear's Gone Fission Active Member

    I believe an old live recording trick is to take an omni condnesor, pack it in foam (?), and stick it under the bridge or tailpiece of the bass. Basically it becomes a contact pickup this way. I'd even wager the cheapo Behringer measurement mics could work well for this. I think I remember Bruce Sweiden doing this with the Altec "coke bottle" tube mics, maybe see if it's in the online eq archives?

    Bear
     
  4. Scott Gould

    Scott Gould Active Member

    DPA makes some sub-miniature omni condensers that are ideal for this. The 4060, 4061 & 4062 are about the size of your little fingernail. The frequency response curves DPA publishes show them to be ruler flat up to 10khz, rising gently by 2db at 15khz and back down by 20khz. I havent heard them myself, but I've heard good things about them. They are supposed to have the lowest self-noise of any mics this size. List price on the 60 & 61 (hi & low sensitivity) is $399; the Xlo sensitivity 62 is $589. Take a look at http://www.dpamicrophones.com .

    Scott
     
  5. dynamo12

    dynamo12 Guest

    I like the sound you get with a mike as Neumann
    KM 84 placed inside the bridge. A trick that i've learned, instead of wrapping the mike in foam, that seems to dampen the tone sometimes, is using a couple of rubber bands bent around the bridge and hanging the mike in there, a sort of elastic suspension..
    You want to try a cardioid pattern in this case to avoid bleed and get a focused and full sound.
    You should baffle around the bass too that helps a lot and still mantains visual between musicians.
    There are a few clip on mikes that i've heard doing a good job but i've never used them. Those are small capsules condenser AT the atm 35( with this you can change the capsules too ) or similar in AKG, BEYER range. Jo
     
  6. sign

    sign Guest

    Yo Guys, thanks a lot for responding. I will try that small DPA mic.

    About visual contact; I have a room next to the tracking room and there are windows so there is always visual contact, but still they don't want it and I guess I have to keep the customer satisfied.

    I tried to please the bassplayer with a monitor beside him (not loud of course) and in the tracking room the bass on the monitors and some don't have a problem doing so.

    Like I said, I'll try the baby DPA which is as small as the Sennheiser MKE. I'll also try the omni under the bridge and the KM84 in the bridge with rubber bands.

    Thanx :w:
     
  7. dynamo12

    dynamo12 Guest

    <<<<About visual contact; I have a room next to the tracking room and there are windows so there is always visual contact, but still they don't want it and I guess I have to keep the customer satisfied.>>>
    Han, that's what i was saying, whatever your mike or technique is going to be, since the guy is going to be in the same room with the other musicians and not in the iso booth, you should surround him with baffles, of about 1,20 mt. height, in a way to get the necessary isolation and still maintaning the visual contact.
    Have a good session and fun. Jo
     
  8. sign

    sign Guest

    Thanks a lot Jo, I will definately have fun, I always have and I hope it will be a good session.
    Two inch tape, big analog console, classic mics, plenty of beer, I'll do the best I can, so what can go wrong? :) :)

    Peace, Han
     
  9. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    Hello Han,

    What is the set-up? is it rythm section ( drums,UpRight Bass, Piano,Gtr) and horns?
    How big is/what are the room demensions.
    I've got a sure fire way to Mic all that. With all of the players in the room, together. With little or no headphones; everybody hears everybody the way they're used to.... the added benefit of this approach is: they perform better and the sound you'll get -with all of that bleed- will give you "that" classic bigband (or little combo) sound....let me know.
     
  10. anonymous

    anonymous Guests

    Originally posted by Han:

    Two inch tape, big analog console, classic mics, plenty of beer, I'll do the best I can, so what can go wrong? :) :)


    Spilled beer on the big analog console?
    :(
     
  11. sign

    sign Guest

    Originally posted by RecorderMan:
    Hello Han,

    What is the set-up? is it rythm section ( drums,UpRight Bass, Piano,Gtr) and horns?
    How big is/what are the room demensions.
    I've got a sure fire way to Mic all that. With all of the players in the room, together. With little or no headphones; everybody hears everybody the way they're used to.... the added benefit of this approach is: they perform better and the sound you'll get -with all of that bleed- will give you "that" classic bigband (or little combo) sound....let me know.


    Yo RecorderMan

    Drums, upright bass :) banjo, trumpet, bones, sax/clarinet, vocals and a couple of songs with grand piano.
    The room is 6m x 5m (20' x 18') and I seldom use headphones. I don't have problems to get a good sound, I once got a maximum score of 10 for a jazz CD I've recorded and it got CD of the month in an important magazine. The only problem is the bass, some play if very soft and the spill is too much, some have pickups and an amp which sound awful. So I was thinking of a very small high quality mic inside the bass!
    I have plenty of good mics like Neumann M149, KM184, AKG C451, C3000, C1000, D12, Sennheiser MD441, MD421, MD 416, Beyer M88, M69, M201, Shure SM57/58 and some AT dynamics, PZM's.
    I'm very interested in your opinion and how you work.

    Thanks a lot, Han

    the off axis response of a MD441 is very nice :) :)
     
  12. sign

    sign Guest

    Originally posted by littledog:


    Spilled beer on the big analog console?
    :(


    LOL!! NO FOOD AND DRINKS IN THE CONTROL ROOM, AND NO SMOKING TOO. :( :eek: :confused: ??

    Peace

    (sometimes worse)
     
  13. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    Originally posted by Han:


    Yo RecorderMan

    Drums, upright bass :) banjo, trumpet, bones, sax/clarinet, vocals and a couple of songs with grand piano.
    The room is 6m x 5m (20' x 18') and I seldom use headphones. I don't have problems to get a good sound, I once got a maximum score of 10 for a jazz CD I've recorded and it got CD of the month in an important magazine. The only problem is the bass, some play if very soft and the spill is too much, some have pickups and an amp which sound awful. So I was thinking of a very small high quality mic inside the bass!
    I have plenty of good mics like Neumann M149, KM184, AKG C451, C3000, C1000, D12, Sennheiser MD441, MD421, MD 416, Beyer M88, M69, M201, Shure SM57/58 and some AT dynamics, PZM's.
    I'm very interested in your opinion and how you work.

    Thanks a lot, Han

    the off axis response of a MD441 is very nice :) :)


    Let me explain my Jazz Band/Combo set-up and in the midst of that answer your Bass question.
    A. Picture a Large circle.
    you are at 6 o'clock ( the control room), looking out at this circle that extends in front of you.
    B. Centered at 9 oclock is the rythm section:
    if we place our-selves @ 9 o'clock looking @ 3 o'clock we place-left to right:
    1. Drums: miked w/ OH's(451's if tou have a Pair), kick(421) & snare(condenser or 57).
    2. To the Right of the drums is the Stand Up Bass. Take a D.I. and mic. I usually use a U67; in your case Maybe try the M149, or theD12 (to limit bleed a tad-although Bleed is partn of the sound). A short Goboe between the drums and Bass is help-full. If the Bassist has an amp, place it behind him and have it on, just loud enough, to hear him/herself.
    3. Immediately to the right of the Bass place the grand Piano, Lid Up facing away from the Drums. Large Diaphram Condenser mic directly over, and pointed down, into one of the holes, pointing at the Diaphram uinderneath the frame at the lower end. One Small Condenser mic directly over, and pointed down, into one of the holes, pointing at the Diaphram uinderneath the frame at the Upper end. The paino this close to the drums will minimize the predelay in the bleed between the two. The Mic placement will emphasize that woody tone on classic jazz LP's. they'll be set-up close to how they are live. they'll play great, and the bleed will be most of the "verb" you'll need.
    4. To the right of the Piano, I'd place the Banjo. Any mic you like...57 will do just fine.
    5. centered on 3 o'clock facing the rythm section you place your horns, in a semi-circle.
    I favor Large Diapharm condensers(w/tubes if you got them) on Saxes and Clarinets. Ribbons(preffferrably) or large Diaphram Condensers (w/Pad pn), thirdly followed by Dynamics; for Trumpets and Bones.
    This palcement will insure that the right combination of bleed will be good. You won't need phones, and they'll play well together.


    C. A D.I. with pref a U67, or other (their are no real rules) should be all you need. Don't worry about the bleed. This all predicates that the person can play...most jazz musicians can. You can even punch on his track...and in the context of all the other mic's shouldn't notice the differrence between his sound between the live take (with it's bleed) and the punched spots. You will obviously in solo, but with all mics in...probably not. I usually place the mic up around the bridge, a few inches out. I will say that the rolled up mic underb the bridge sounds like a good try also. Although I've never needed to do it other than what I've described.
     
  14. sign

    sign Guest

    Hey RecorderMan, thank you so much for your advice, I will certainly do it like you explained.

    I was thinking to do it in the much bigger room outside the control and the tracking room, as you can see on my website.

    Thanks again

    Peace :w:
     
  15. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    Originally posted by Han:
    Hey RecorderMan, thank you so much for your advice, I will certainly do it like you explained.

    I was thinking to do it in the much bigger room outside the control and the tracking room, as you can see on my website.

    Thanks again

    Peace :w:


    Do you mean the one with the car in the picture?

    Onme more point. Don't worry about bleed. when you get ALL the mics up to a balance you'll start to see why all you need for the drums ( for instance) is probably the OH. ALL the other mics act as multi-taps on the room which as a whole will give you that real old-school Capitol records kinda drum sound...along with everything else.

    Have fun....I LOVE TRACKING as much as mixing (if not more)
     
  16. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    If the Bassist has an amp, place it behind him and have it on, just loud enough, to hear him/herself.


    forgot to memtion:
    If the Bassist doesn't have an amp. send an aux send of the bass track (so you can adjust level) to an amp and then a speaker (like a spare Tannoy, etc) ; place this behind the Bassist. It REALLY helps to support them acoustically so that they play more even, and so that the drummer can hear him better, with the horns and all. Just a touch in volume will do...you don't need alot.
     
  17. sign

    sign Guest

    Hey RecorderMan, you are a big help, thanks a million bro!!

    Yes, the room with the old Jaguar is much bigger and has a good sound. (I'll put the car outside)

    I will place a basscombo behind the bassist so he can ajust the level by himself and maybe put an extra speaker near the drummer in order to improve the 'feel' between them. (horns are loud enough :) )

    There are many jazz bands in the Netherlands so I guess it's a good market, and I want the best possible sound.

    Peace
     
  18. Han,
    I've just finished a location recording of a jazz trio(piano,upright bass,flugel horn)in the guy's living room(10m x 8m,plenty of diffusion and soft furnishings).The bass player needed to be near the(baby grand)piano,about 2m from pianists right shoulder.The horn player was about 5m away.They all played with headphones half-on.Bass was recorded using DI from SWR head (no speaker),and Rode NTK 40cm from f-hole angled toward bridge.Best upright sound I've ever got.Good even player,great sounding bass (3/4 size,no dead spots)-all these factors really help.The bleed factor really helped the overall cohesion of the mix.The big room in your picture looks great-just make sure you leave the Jag right where it is......
     
  19. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    Good comments Dave,

    I would only like to reinforce the; from left to right; placement:

    Drums,short goboe(Baffle-low enough for sightlines with drummer; just to keep a bit of the direct kit out of the Bass mic), UpRightBass, Piano. All in a line left to right.
    Opposite this line in a semicircle are the horns. The rythm section faces the horns.

    Never was into jazz too much until I got to record a bunch, same with country. I'm an ol' '70's rocker , but I love Live music and the players are usually good in those genres
     
  20. FifthCircle

    FifthCircle Well-Known Member

    When I record jazz, I usually take somewhat of a minimalist approach...

    For the bass I prefer to use a fat sounding tube mic on a stand facing the instrument. Lately, it has been a UM 57 which sounds absolutely incredible. However, often in live shows where I do most of my recording, I'll have major leakage issues with the drums. To remedy that, I may add in a little bit of a direct box (a tube one like the ADL-200 or the Demeter DI, but not too much--just articulation). When players let me do it, I've also been known to take a small diaphragm mic, wrap in foam and put under the bridge facing the fingerboard. Be aware, though, that it dampens the sound and many players don't like it.

    For the drums, I'll take a high-end stereo microphone and place it in front of the kit between cymbals and toms "looking" at the snare. My favorites are: SM-69 tube, SM-23, AKG C34 and C426. Occasionally, I'll supliment with a kick drum mic. Makes for a good open drum sound.

    For the piano, I'll open the lid all the way or sometimes even take it off. I like small diaphragm mics such as Schoeps at the low and high ends facing the hammers. If leakage is an issue, turn the piano so that the lid is open out away from the drums.

    --Ben
     

Share This Page