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Alternative to Korg MR-1000?

Discussion in 'Pro Audio Equipment' started by gentlevoice, May 2, 2010.

  1. gentlevoice

    gentlevoice Active Member

    Hi recording people,

    I've been looking at the Korg MR-1000 for some time now to be used for portable recording purposes. It's a couple of years old by now, though, so was wondering if a better alternative has appeared? Sample rate is very important such as the 5.6 MHz 1-bit recording rate of the MR-1000 and preferably higher than that. It can also be 24 bit recording at a higher sample rate than 192 kHz.

    Please note that I'm not into a discussion on why I would like higher sample rates - I have my reasons for this.

    Suggestions are most welcome :)

    Greetings,

    Jesper
     
  2. hueseph

    hueseph Well-Known Member

    Looky here: Pro Recording Gear for Sale
     
  3. gentlevoice

    gentlevoice Active Member

    Hi - thanks for pointing me towards this sale, however, I am hoping to have replies as to whether other equipment preferably with a higher sampling rate has become available.

    Regards,

    Jesper
     
  4. hueseph

    hueseph Well-Known Member

    AFAIK there is no hardware that goes beyond 24 bit 192 kHz or 5.6MHz 1 bit. That kind of resolution is already extremely high. If there is hardware out there that does this, it's not yet available to the public or is for scientific purposes only. Higher resolutions exist virtually in software but there really aren't any devices that can comply. YMMV.

    Maybe Remy will chime in here. Remy's more in the know.
     
  5. gentlevoice

    gentlevoice Active Member

    Hi - thanks. I have heard from Bruno Putzeys (associated with Grimm Audio, Grimm Audio), though, that there should be an 11.2 MHz device but have not been able to get more information about it. So, maybe one of you knows ;-)

    BTW what does YMMV mean?

    Regards,

    Jesper
     
  6. hueseph

    hueseph Well-Known Member

    Your Mileage May Vary. Anyhow. I'm scared of where this is going so I'll just step aside and wait for someone with a bit more edgumacashun steps in.
     
  7. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    The real issue with DSD 1 bit recording is that you can't edit it without a massively expensive Pyramix system or similar. As a mastering recorder 1 bit is wonderful to use after analog summing on high end gear. I have not seen any adverts or other notices for 11.2 MHz devices at all. I looked into purchasing for multitrack recording (linked MR-2000s) and just could not justify the expense verses resolution-especially without editing capabilities. That and the fact that so few listen to good audio anymore, actively or otherwise.
     
  8. hueseph

    hueseph Well-Known Member

    It seems you've been quite persistent with this on other forums. Have you yet to find your answer?


    There is at least one other forum topic that you have started concerning this. Why don't you ask Mr. Putzeys to suggest some hardware for you?
     
  9. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Well-Known Member

    You know many of us strived to create the best possible audio we can produce. Current DST DSD technology allows for a 100 kHz bandwidth. Any higher than that you are going to start to have RF (radio frequency problems/interference). If you need to record frequencies beyond 100 kHz, you probably need a specialized industrial recorder. No way this would really have any benefit to music. Direct Stream Digital is the closest sounding medium/format to encroach on the original quality of analog. But there are still many reasons why it is so impractical and difficult to work with. We can only hope that in years to come all of our digital audio will be utilized in this manner.

    Mx. Remy Ann David
     
  10. Shadow_7

    Shadow_7 Active Member

    5.6MHz DSD is only slightly more data per unit of time than 24/192kHz. There's a couple 24/314kHz units out, although I don't know of any portable ones, and their price points are way out there. Portable as in runs on batteries, not large batteries with inverters.

    Nagra VI is well liked, but not DSD, but 6 channels of input where the Korg is limited to 2. The usual sound device options, but not DSD either, but 24/192 in most cases. I'm actually using a couple SD MM-1 preamps to help expand the battery life of my Korg MR-1000 and am quite happy with that combo. Not so much my mics at the moment. But I'm getting a full 4+ hours on a single set of batteries with 48V mics between the units. Versus 2.5 hours at best with the Korg by itself and those same mics and batteries.
     
  11. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    It's not the amount of data/time unit that makes DSD better than PCM. It has to do with how the analog audio information is transcribed/written as digital. The 1 bit format definitely is as close to analog as you can get. It's the editing end of it that makes it a drag.

    The OP specifically is looking for at least 192k PCM so the Nagra VI is out. It's max is 96k.

    Thanks for the heads up on the Nagra though. I'm always looking for different high quality field recorders and six tracks is a very tempting thing.
     
  12. gentlevoice

    gentlevoice Active Member

    Hi all of you & thanks for taking the time to consider and answer my question - and search.

    To Hueseph: You are right - I have been quite consistent in investigating this. Regarding Mr. Putzeys I had an internet forum conversation with him some time ago - which is when he mentioned that there was a device - but we had different approaches to a development topic and the communication ceased (no negatives intended! I have the most respect for his knowledge and work). So, unfortunately, no further information from here as for now.

    I spoke with Tim de Paravicini of EAR a couple of years ago and his assessment was that digital may come close to analog with a ~ 24 bit/600 kHz resolution. I don't know if this is "it" but have noticed that e.g. Texas Instruments now have 24 bit/625 kHz A/D converters available - as far as I remember actually even 24 bit/ 1MHz, although ENOB is lower than 24 bits. And don't know if they are specifically designed for audio, but to me it is surprising to see that these sample rates are available.

    As I mentioned in my opening post I do not feel inclined to enter into the discussion on whether or not 44,1 kHz, 192 kHz, 5.6 MHz etc. is "enough". Only by following up on this topic I hope to find a device(s) that comply more with my wishes.

    Thanks again for considering my question with your attention! And again, if one of you recording.org users know about higher resolutions I'll be pleased to hear about it.

    Best wishes,

    Jesper
     
  13. gentlevoice

    gentlevoice Active Member

    Ouups - actually they have a 4MSPS/24 bit converter available, the ads1675.

    Best, Jesper
     
  14. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    The ADS1675 is designed for instrumentation and not audio. It's rated at around 17 bits at 4MHz and doesn't reach 20 bits at any speed.

    The PCM4222 that I referenced in my post in your previous thread is the top performer for audio: 124dB (20+ bits) at 216 Ksps. Buy the PCM4222EVM evaluation module for $149, add a power supply and you are motoring. It has XLR and TRS inputs with an 0dBFS of +14dBu, so can be fed from pre-amps set to moderate gain. There is a wide choice of digital output formats including PCM (via AES) and DSD. The DSD output can be set to be 64x or 128x on the equivalent word rate, so this is up to 12.29MHz for two-channel 48KHz/channel equivalent.

    It may be that your secret high sample rate application is not audio related and would be better served by an instrumentation device, in which case, I and the others who have been trying to steer you in a suitable direction have been wasting our time.
     
  15. gentlevoice

    gentlevoice Active Member

    Hi Boswell,

    - thanks also for your reply. Hmmm ... my application is audio just to make that clear. I have a couple of PCM 4202's and would like to use them with an EVM, however, as far as I know the software included from TI's side only allows for about 1 sec (or is it 1 min?) of recording, and can't remember if it's only one channel.... I guess it's the same for the PCM4222?

    But my question is genuine - I just wanted (...would like...) to hear if any of you had heard of a portable device with higher resolution than the Korg MR-1000.

    Best regards,

    Jesper
     
  16. galvani

    galvani Guest

    pc interface/digital recorder for PCM4222 ?

    I am very interested in the PCM4222EVM board but I can't figure out a usb interface for my laptop which is compatible with DSD digital input of pcm.

    Ideally, I'd like to have a stand alone board that takes the DSD out and records it on to SD card (I guess the same way it is done inside Korg rm series).

    are you aware of any commercial or DIY (Eval board, arduino shield) solution for that ?

    thanks
    Andrea
     
  17. gentlevoice

    gentlevoice Active Member

    Hi Andrea,

    Depending on what you want to do, may I suggest the PCM4202 to you? To me it is interesting because it can output an un-changed DSD signal at 5.6 MHz. The PCM 4222 cannot do this as far as I can see.

    Regarding the other parts of your question may I suggest the TI E2E forum? See e.g.:

    http://e2e.ti.com/?DCMP=TIHomeTracking&HQS=Other+OT+home_d_e2e_community

    It's a forum for tips & assistance between engineers and I've noticed that TI employees with specific knowledge about particular products do offer assistance. I've just posted a question there related to the No of samples that can be recorded with the EVM software (ADCpro). If you are interested the link is:

    http://e2e.ti.com/support/data_converters/high_speed_data_converters/f/68/p/69121/250188.aspx#250188

    If you find a solution to recording on an SD card - or recording the DSD signal directly - I hope you will post it here as I'm also mighty interested in finding a solution :)

    Greetings,

    Jesper M√łnsted
     

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