AUDIOWKSTATION where are you ???

Discussion in 'Mastering' started by Groff, Sep 16, 2005.

  1. Groff

    Groff Active Member

    Are you still at RO?

    I would like to hear some advice from you.
     
  2. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Here I am Groff.


    What may I do for you?
     
  3. Groff

    Groff Active Member

    Hi audiowkstation,

    I'm glad you are back.

    I would like to ask you for advice about HF tweeter. I have old Alesis Monitor One monitors and I would like to change/replace the tweeters. I was looking for some better soft dome (I prefer soft dome) tweeters, but there is so many to choose and I'm lost in the jungle.

    Could you give me advice here?

    I was working long time with Monitor One, then decide to move to active (tried with Mackie, Genelec, Tannoy, and bought Dynaudio BM6a). Now I'm tired of all active steroids and I'm going back to «old school». Last 3 weeks I'm with Dynaudio BM6 passive (Hafler, Unico, Bedini) – totally dissatisfied. Then I pick up old Alesis and... Voila! It's hard to believe but old Alesis sound better than BM6p and B&W CM2 (weak bass and low mid, too aggressive and harsh on high). Now I'm looking for tweeter improvement.

    Any suggestion?

    Many thanks in advance
    Best regards
     
  4. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    I would opt for the 27TFFC (H881) Textile dome SEAS (Scientific electro
    acoustic systems)


    http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3268535.20263&pid=1022


    The factory crossover would accomodate this tweeter nicely but you may need to do some minor trimming to the front panel for proper physical fit.
     
  5. Groff

    Groff Active Member

    Thanks,

    I checked Seas 27 TFFC H881. Dimensions are fine. Only the impedance is 6 ohms. Original Alesis tweeter is 4 ohms (I suppose the bass speaker is 4 ohms because the box is 8 ohms). Hafler is 8 ohms too. Would be 6 ohms problematic?

    What would be choice if I'm going with the 200 $ range for a pair? Is it worth to invest?

    I'm also planning to replace connections inside the monitors with silver wire. I already have piece from Monitor Audio for that. I could do direct soldering without using original pushon crimps. Friend of mine suggest me to replace electronic parts in crossovers with new (same specs & values but better). I doubt. What do you think about it?
     
  6. Cucco

    Cucco Distinguished Member

    Dude - Groff??

    I know different strokes for different folks, but seriously. If you're suggesting that the M1s are cleaner, more bass present, less harsh and over all better than the B&Ws or the Dynaudios, I strongly have to suggest there is something wrong with the room their in.

    The B&Ws are a very gently speaker on top with a full, rich bass. (belying their size). Perhaps they weren't broken in?? B&W recommends a minimum of 100 hours of constant program material and prefers 200 hours continuous. As for the BM6 - these things are as linear of a speaker as I've heard regardless of price. They too strongly benefit from a good break in period though.

    Of course, in both cases, a well-tuned room is essential.

    I know, I'm butting in on this conversation so I'll shut up now...

    J. :cool:
     
  7. TrilliumSound

    TrilliumSound Active Member

    I agree but I'd add that monitors placement and the listening spot are crucial in conjunction with the room treatments and tuning.

    Richard
     
  8. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Hi Groff!

    The impedance difference (actually raw DC resistance) will lower the crossover frequency to better accomodate the new tweeters. I had figured this into account :)

    Although budgeting yourself higher than the cost of the SEAS units could possibly render some increase in performance, I found this not to be the case in your situation...unless you opt for the Morel MDT33 tweeters, shown here:

    http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=999509.9658&pid=675



    If you do this, a new crossover will need to be designed for the speaker system. If I were to do this for you, I would need the speakers here to perform the proper balancing and voicing and it would run into considerable money. (Too much for the performance upgrade enjoyed IMHO)

    To Cucco:

    At different times, I travel to various studios to do mixes as requested and have used the original model 1 Alesis units on occasion. Although they are not built to the precision levels of the other loudspeakers mentioned, I can see where Groff forms his opinions of them. Once you learn their bass translation, they can help you put together a pretty firm mix. I would call this an "to eaches own" event as some monitors I have used (of the upper eschelon catagories) have taken considerable time to get used to overall.

    I find ALL monitors can use improvements and many of these to be the room...so we are in agreement with that.

    Again...personal preferences prevail. One mans junk is anothers treasure.
     
  9. Cucco

    Cucco Distinguished Member

    Oh, don't get me wrong - I definitely see the merit of the original M1s. But the speakers and the characteristics referenced didn't seem to match.

    I'll agree - certain High-$$ speakers, we'll just give an example of a brand and to protect the innocent, I'll just refer to them as "Eve's Husband..." for example, to me sound no better than many of the original standards.

    If anything, the M1 was a fairly revolutionary product in that it brought the concept of a studio monitor to the masses. No one else had even come close up to that point. And, consequently, I did many a mix on the M1s back in their hay-days.

    It's just odd to me to think of them, an agreed upon "budget monitor" with serious compromises as being easier to mix on than a Dynaudio or B&W. Both of these speakers, when properly broken in and set up, are simply easy to listen to and easy to monitor with. WYHIWYG of sorts...

    J.
     
  10. Groff

    Groff Active Member

    Hi,

    Cucco,

    My room is small (16.4' x 9.8' x 9.8') acoustically treated (DIY) with
    4'' of Rockwool in the two front corners from floor to ceiling and in the middle of the front wall. In the rear left corner is the fireplace (impossible to make any treatment) and along the rest of the rear wall are two big and 11'' deep closets completely filled with Rockwool. Also 9 acoustic foams (39''x 23''x3'') around mix position on left-right walls/ceiling for RFZ and 2 more on the front wall, between monitors. I have to treat wall/ceiling corners and make a cloud above in the future.

    Apparently not the place from the dream neither the worst on the
    earth.

    Monitor placement/mix position is around 38% rule, in 3-4' equilateral triangle. I played a lot with positions to find best compromise spot.

    I was shocked about the sound of BM6 P much more than you were with my previous post. Brand new pair, played 3 weeks x 10 hours/day to "warm up", and then... :shock:

    I borrowed two more expensive amps than my Hafler to check again. I noticed only small overall improvement. Generally: highs are weak, acceptable mids, less tight and muddy lows and whole picture is somehow distant and anemic. Sorry, but I can't mix using those boxes. After many CD's, just for fun, I played some of my first mixes I did ("smiley"and edgy sound) and that seems to be OK on Dyn's, but I know for sure they aren't.

    Then I did A/B test with: old M1, new M1 mkII passive (6 months in use), B&W CM2 (few years in use). They all play significantly better than BM6 P.

    I don't know, maybe I had bad luck and picked up the worse pair they made.

    IMO CM2 are pretty inspective and have very clear highs but those alu-domes sound a bit inorganic and less natural to me, specially in nearfield position, so I disagree with "gently speakers on top". I prefer soft domes. Personal choice. Mids are great, but a bit pushed to the front. Therefore center of the mix (voice, snare) seems to be louder and closer to listener. It's not the big problem, easy to learn. Definitions of low mids and upper bass are weakest part.

    I have to say, low mid/bass range wasn't the problem with BM6 active and M1 mkII active.

    I agree with all of you, old M1 isn't superior monitor by any means. Do I know how to mix on them to achieve reasonably good and well translated mixes? Yes. So, I decided to improve the tweeters, and save money for the day when I could afford really high-end bitches.


    Audiowkstation,

    Thank you very much for your advices and effort. I will try with SEAS soon as possible.

    Best regards
     
  11. lowland

    lowland Guest

    Someone recently sent me a trance/dance track for mastering. The balance was excellent, and very little needed doing. When I asked about his monitor/room setup he told me he used Alesis Monitor 1s in a fairly small, untreated room - I was surprised to say the least. Of course, he may just have got lucky, but there's more material on the way so we'll see. This mix sounded as good or better than music recorded and mixed in a much more fancy environment.

    My other Monitor 1 experience has been with a UK film and TV composer who has them in his workroom, and I've recorded vocals over his backing tracks a number of times in recent years on various projects. The mixes have always been consistently outstanding, and usually done quickly as often happens in that world - perhaps that's part of the reason they sound good.

    I haven't heard these speakers myself, but it certainly seems that good results can be achieved with them in a project studio environment.
     

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