Building a new Drum Room

Discussion in 'Acoustics (Live Room, ISO Booths)' started by Jason Morris, Mar 19, 2018.

  1. Jason Morris

    Jason Morris Active Member

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    A couple of reasons.

    1) There was too much electrical running thru the existing joists for me to tear out and redo. I think darn near all the electric in the house converge and go thru the joists of that room. That would have been a nightmare.
    2) Running the joists perpendicular kept my spans shorter so I could use smaller joists.

    Tucking into the bays as per Rod's book would have given me a bit more headroom, that is true, but acoustically the inside out ceiling will be just as "high" as if I had run the inner joists between the existing.
     
  2. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    Cool man, sounds good to me, just wanted to double check.
     
  3. Jason Morris

    Jason Morris Active Member

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    So here is a simple question..

    I have pretty easy access to the electrical panel from my drum room.

    I am planning on only making a single penetration for my electrical, and a separate single penetration for ethernet... So, yeah two 'single' penetrations. ;)

    Anyway.. Should I make them thru the plywood and drywall "leaf" or thru the 2x4 framing?
    Once I make mypenetration, I can run the cable thru the space between the inner and outer leaf, then thru the existing ceiling joists over to the electrical closet. The electrical panel is only a couple feet away from the drum room.

    and of course I will be filling the holes with acoustic caulk. I dunno. my gut says go thru the top plate (2 2x4's) but I figured I'd throw the question out here and see what you guys said before I started drilling holes I can't undrill.
     
  4. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    If the hole is a vertical hole thru the top plates, thats fine. If the hole/ cable run is horizontal then thru the wall sheathing is fine. If running thru both leafs, stagger the hole so its on one bay on keaf 1, and another on leaf two.

    You may want to run some pvc pipe to allow for easy cable running after the build is done. This helps in case of expansion or repair. If you run piping, incorporate a couple 90 degree bends and stagger the holes to maintain isolation. It maybe helpful to use the 90drgree bend thats rounded, to help keep wire runs easy. If i recall its called a "skate" bend, but its easy enough to find. Its perfectly acceptable to run audio cable in the same run as the Ethernet, they wont interfere with each other.
     
  5. Jason Morris

    Jason Morris Active Member

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    So, I finally have some of the "inner" ceiling joists up, and placed the first ceiling module.

    The joists are 2x6 over a span of just under 10'.
    I have only installed one so far. Wanted to look into the best way to deal with the insulation before i went farther.
    I think I had originally thought of using 2x8 joists, then decided on 2x6 and sort of forgot about the insulation on top of the module. :/
    I only have 1/2" between the top of the ceiling module and the existing joists, so I'm not sure what I want to do.
    I think the insulation from the existing joists will just barely touch the drywall of the modules. Maybe that is all I need to dampen them.
    Or maybe I should pull batts of R11 in half and place those into the existing bays in addition to the R30.
    That is what I am leaning to now, but thought maybe it would compress too much.
     

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  6. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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  7. Jason Morris

    Jason Morris Active Member

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    If I do that, I won't have anything damping my inner ceiling though, right?
    Or I have to figure out how to get insulation into the 1/2 space I have between the top of the modules and the bottom of the existing joists.
     
  8. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    I may be misunderstanding the design, or your question but heres how i see it.

    If you leave the existing insulation, and secure it in place. Leave an airspace between the ceiling assemblies. Then you insulate the bays of inner ceiling with rigid fiberglass (with airspace behind it to save $ and increase absorbsion efficiency) then cover that with fabric to finish it off.

    You always want an airspace (1" min usually) between the two ceiling assemblies (leafs) otherwise the design is short circuited and isolation drastically effected.

    The space allows physical decoupling so the assemblies are free to vibrate on their own, independently, without passing that energy to the next assembly.

    The insulation in the bays are there to dampen resonance (existing ceiling) and as acoustic treatment in the new ceiling. Dampening resonance isnt for isolation per se (its only a couple ectra db of iso) its there to act like moon gels on a drum head, or palm muting a guitar string. It traps the air borne energy, while the airspace handles the physical vibration transmissions.

    Not sure if im mis-understanding your question.
     
  9. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    Actually you dont want to include an airspace between the insulation and backing (drywall) on the inner leaf, since in this case the insulation has two jobs: acoustic treatment, and to dampen the resonance of the cavity.

    Sorry, i mentioned the airspace in the previous post.
     
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  10. Jason Morris

    Jason Morris Active Member

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    Thats what I am planning to do. My understanding is that doing this acts as the acoustic treatment, but not the damper.
    I can't tell you WHY, as it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. It seems like it would act as BOTH in the case of an inside-out ceiling.
    But I know that was what I read. :/

    The space between the inner leaf and the outer leaf is much more than 1", with the exception of the outer joists.
    where the outer joists cross it is more it's like 1/2"

    I guess what I really need to figure out at this point is does the mineral wool I plan to put in the bays count as my damper as well as acting as acoustic treatment?
     
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  11. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    If the insulation is in contact with tbe sheathing, it is dampening it. The wall design and physics apply simularly both inside out, and standard configs, in this regard. The idea is to prevent hollow cavities, ie resonant cavities/chambers.

    The advantage (in this case) to standard double wall config is the insulation faces each other, vs inside out where the insulation faces the hard backing if the inner leaf. If you had tons of space you could lay insulation on top of the inner leaf.

    That said, as long as the insulation is touching the sheathing, your achieving the same effect, and there is nothing to worry about.

    You can always use standard fluffy r value insulation in your inner leaf. This will give you better bass absorbsion and be cheaper. Just make sure you retain it so the ceiling (fabric) doesnt look all bumpy. You can use a plastic vapour barrier if your worried about particulates. It will reflect a neglible abount of high frequencies back into the room which is fine.

    "Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see."

    -Ben Franklin

    :)
     
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  12. Jason Morris

    Jason Morris Active Member

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    Yeah, I was planning to use Mineral Wool (fire/sound batts) in the bays of my inner ceiling and walls, but I'm not sure what is going to be best acoustically yet.
    I suppose there is no rule that says I have only uses one or the other?

    I haven't got to the stage where I measure the acoustics and try any sort of correction. Im not even sure there is any advantage to "measuring" the acoustics of a live/drum room as there would be for a control room.
    I figured I'd just have to use my ears and see what I felt the room needed once the isolation part was done.
     
  13. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Distinguished Member

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    Hey Jason,
    Once you hit record for the first time, you'll figure out if there is problems with your room..
    A good thing to have is bass trap panels. When I built mine, I placed a hard surface on the back of them so I can manipulate the acoustic of my room by moving them and orientate the absorbsion side.. Tools like that can allow you to have a thight sound for some songs and a more lively sound for others...
     
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  14. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    You can use both types of insulation on your inner leaf. You could use say a 4" fluffy insulation tucked into the bays, and a 1" rigid insulation below it, even with tbe bottom edge of the studs. Leaving about 1/2" airspace between the insulations. This will give you a nice amount bass absorption and a clean looking finish.

    Your on the right track. Any small room is going to have a need for taming the echoes and room boom, tracking rooms have the advantage of mic selection and placement, as well as moving the instrument around, and movable baffles as well, all to help get tbe intended sound. Measurements and analysis are much more critical in control rooms where the speakers and listening location are fixed positions. Particularly in smaller rooms with lower ceilings, a completely dead ceiling is desireable as the reflections from it are not generally useful.

    Ive had good luck in a small fairly dead booth with drums using good tuning and about 5 mics. Using tbe door open different amounts and a couple room mics. Matt wallace stated in a recent tape op article he did maroon 5's drums (for the album with the song harder to breathe) in a dead small room with tbe door partially open and a couple ambeimt mics as well. Lol his drums came out better than mine however, despite similar techniques.
     
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  15. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    This is a tight but not small or dry drum sound.

     
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  16. JLDrumStudio

    JLDrumStudio Active Member

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    E5DC13F9-2FBF-4292-8554-3EFF7B6AB6DA.jpeg F7152267-F6AE-4147-A639-C6C8607577A4.jpeg 62DF860A-A69A-4035-8DE5-BB4CD770A088.jpeg Hi Jason, great information here. I’ve been reasearching for a few years and I have just started my studio build in our house that we moved into last year. I will be building an inside out ceiling and walls. I’m in a basement with three concrete walls. I’ve been beefing up the rim joist and won’t be long before I start adding two layers of drywall with green glue to the underside of the subfloor. I will be building a room inside a room. (Live drum room) 15’8 x 16’4. 7’7” to bottom of existing joist. Not a lot of ceiling room. The Joist are open web.
    I have a couple of questions for you. Did you have a lot of nails sticking through your subfloor ? Did you cut them off if you did? As you can see in my pic. I only have 1 1/2 to get two sheets of 5/8 drywall because of my joist design. No room for 1/2” or 1” styrofoam to suck up the nails poking through like John Sayers site suggest.
    I’m going to use 2x6 ceiling joist. Did you stick with 16” centers and make smaller modules to fit inside? How long were your modules? My span is a little more than yours but can’t sacrifice any headroom. I might have to sister the joist.

    You have a lot of information I can use lol. I will be checking back often.
    Oh yea, on my future ceiling modules I only have space for two 5/8 drywall. No room to add the plywood. Is that a problem?
     
  17. Jason Morris

    Jason Morris Active Member

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    Hi!

    I am envious of your square footage, but I can't say I'd be eager to tackle that ceiling!
    Do you know what the measurement is between your floor and the bottom of those ceiling supports?

    I did have nails poking thru, yeah.
    I didn't clip off any of the nails though. I used the styrofoam trick for most of my bays. The first few, I bent the nails over and pounded them down flat. Wish I had not done that. It's not going to be fun if the wood floor above ever needs to come up. I know I read a comment by Rod on another forum where he strongly advised against cutting the nails, as it could lead to problems with your floor above.

    I went with like 19.2" centers. I built the modules so that when they were completed I could easily fit a standard batt of mineral wool in the bay.
    I sistered two 2x6 joists together as well. I probably didn't need to do that, but the cost for a few extra 2x6's seemed worth the extra structural strength, and I didn't really see a downside, so I did it.

    My modules are about 4'8" long. Easily manageable with two people. Would be tough to install with just one person.

    My buddy who has been helping me out with this is a great carpenter, and he asked me the same thing. "Hey do we need to use plywood on these modules? Maybe we can save you some money and just use 3 layers of drywall?"
    My answer to him was "I Don't know. All I know is this is how I have seen it done by someone I consider an expert, so I would rather spend the extra money and do it that way than have to tear it all out and do it again if it doesn't work right."

    So I guess thats is my answer to you, and I hope you don't view it as a cop out. What you are talking about doing makes perfect sense to me, but I'm not an expert, and the way you want to do it is a deviation from how I saw it done.
    I wonder if the plywood helps keep the modules from twisting or flexing over the years?
     
  18. JLDrumStudio

    JLDrumStudio Active Member

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    114EF236-6FEF-4CFA-8C15-0ADB17256D58.jpeg Thanks Jason for the quick response.
    I’m 7 ft 7” right now to the bottom of my floor joist. I will have a ton of work up in my floor joist. I will just take it one step at a time. My next step is to beef up the subfloor. I’ve heard different things on the nails coming through the subfloor. Seems like they use to think it was ok to bend or cut but now they say the styrofoam is the salution. I understand that on a typical floor joist, that’s the best and easiest salution. Mine unfortunately is not typical I only have 1 -1/2 inch to beef up the subfloor. So, that’s a problem with the nails. I think I’m going to trim them leaving 1/8 sticking down. I will use some 1/4” polystyrene closed cell foam to cover the nails. Then two 5/8 drywall with green glue. That gives me 1-1/2 total so my cleats don’t have to be notched. I did look into the nail problem and it seems the hvac guys are running into the same problem when they put up thier heat transfer plates for floor heaters. They have just been cutting them by the hundreds. I dunno lol. Looks like I’m stuck cutting them.
    Here is a scetch,by doing the inside out ceiling without the plywood I am 7 ft 1-1/2 to the bottom of my modules/ 2x6
    I have plenty of time to think before I cross that bridge. Subfloor and existing hvac are making my head hurt. Oh what we go through for sound isolation.
     
  19. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    For the nails, i prefer banging them flat to the subfloor whenever applicable. Eaiser than cutting them, and doesnt mess with the fastening of the upper floor covering. Styrofoam is easier applied when you need to prevent tbe screws your using to fasten the drywall to tbe subfloor, from poking up thru the floor covering upstairs. It can work both ways, but it seems more difficult to install the stryofoam into a bunch of partially bent nails.

    Id also verify with tbe Green Glue Company that its effective in your proposed application. I only recall seeimg test data for full sheets. Given the 1.5x price of gg relative to drywall id want to make sure it was working equally well, and as perscribed.

    Inside out isnt my area of expertise, i know that in general isolation construction, plywood is integral being structural, allowing for a more rigid wall panel/partition (lowering resonant frequency of the assembly) and gives you something to screw subsequent layers of sheathing into.
     
  20. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    There is an extreme weak link on the drawing, with the new modules fitting in between the new studs, without a continuous sheet(s) above them, you end up with huge stud size runs where the isolation is only as good as an uncovered framing member. This is going to greatly, greatly, very significantly, reduce the amount of isolation you can acheive. Isolation sheating should be one (psuedo) continuous, air sealed, massive layer. I would cosider 'wrapping' the joists with drywall on the side exposed to the drum room (studio ceiling), and using the standard backer rod/caulking method to create a continuous, air sealed, massive membrane for your iso layer.

    Is consuder a standard non-inside out independently framed ceiling applying drywall directly to the bottom of the new framing, Or id consider a risc-1 clip based ceiling assembly. To me the minimal amount of headroom gain on an inside out assembly, are not worth the sacrifice in isolation or the extra labour. Acoustic tiles, foam, and moving blankets are all very thin materials capable of reducing ceiling reflections effectively.
     

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