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Comment about monitors.

Discussion in 'Monitoring & Headphones' started by therecordingart, Jun 21, 2005.

  1. therecordingart

    therecordingart Well-Known Member

    Jul 28, 2004
    I have a pair of Event TR8's and I can't mix anything that translates properly!!! I've been using them for a long time now, have changed my room, treated my room with help from the acoustics guys, changed my listening position.....and still! The funny thing is....my mixes sound terrific on the monitors then when they get to a different pair, my car, my stereo....crap!

    I think the TR8's probably fall into the category of sounding pretty good, but not good for mixing. It sounds like there is a hole in the low mids to the low low end.

    I can't wait for my NS-10's to get here. I got to mess with them when I was at a big studio here in Chicago. I tried them combined with B&W's. The difference between them was a matter of mainly "brightness" and low-mid/low end response. The B&W's sounded a little more like a really high-fi stereo with tons of clarity and the NS-10's sound a little ugly, but very very revealing. The song translated like a dream between the two though. In the NS10's you could kinda imagine what everything would sound like on a high end system and you know what it would sound like on an average system.

    Sorry for the rambling about nothing guys. I can't say this stuff to my girlfriend or else I get a blank stare. Feel free to comment.
  2. Matt_Trix

    Matt_Trix Guest

    Haha, AMEN brother! My girlfriend is a recording artist (singer, good one too) and she still blanks out almost completely when I start talking gear.. to her credit though she does have a great pair of ears and knows what she likes.. she just can't seem to make the connection between that and all the technical aspects of getting that sound!... I've got a cheap mic which has a blue light on the front (I think it's a Samson large diaphram which sounds good on certain things) which she likes because of the blue light ;-).. having said that, she definitely knows her favourite mic, but anything beyond that is black magic!

    Most of our sound checks are like:
    "Which sounds better... that.... or....... that?"
    "Second one"
    "What about that?"
    "Ooo that's nice too.. do them all again."
    etc etc.. ad nausium

    Still, I prefer that to an artist who "knows it all".

    About the monitors. I'd love a pair of NS10s just because they've been doing it for so many people for so long.. can anyone hear compare the NS10s to a pair of MSP5s knowledgably? NS10s are famous for making a bad mix sound bad.. do the MSP5s do the same job?

  3. jonnyc

    jonnyc Guest

    I've heard nothing but the complete opposite from ns-10's. Its amazing how our ears vary.
  4. roguescout

    roguescout Guest

    What I've heard about the original wood pulp NS-10's is that they are uniquely "bright" and mid-heavy. But I still wish I had a pair!

    Without a sub in the monitor section, I think we all over-compensate when using near-fields that dump-off around 50Hz. I run the TR6's and had to train myself to ignore the pronounced mids, watch the highs for peaks and always slope off the lows even though I couldn't pick them up under 45Hz.

    Then I listen to my mixes in a pair of Ultrasone 550's (DJ phones with pronounced bass), Ultrasone 2000's (audiophile phones that are flat and open back), my Fisher home stereo rack with 12" woofers in the towers, a P.O.S. Sanyo boom box I got at a garage sale, and then out in my Jeep with the optional factory Alpine system. If nothing jumps out at me with my "consumer" settings on that "consumer" gear... BUENO! If I need to fix it, I EQ it some more on the "pre-maximized" mix, take up the headroom based on the style and try again.

    Yes, if I relied solely on the Events, my mixes would suck. Thank God I only have to travel out to the driveway to hear if my mixes are translating.

    But A LOT of people get good translations with the NS-10's and the Mackie 824's as well, sans subwoofer. I dunno... Perhaps it is the subjective balance we perceive at the console which makes them magical.

    Until I can fork over the moolah, I'll just do the extra work for now. :roll:
  5. axel

    axel Guest

    i follow this general monitor debate for a very long time here on RO, to cut a long corner very short, yes it is very nice to have a pair of "great" monitors, by all means it can become rediculious, as the most important factor remains, 'knowing yours' if you get used once propperly to your monitoring you are able to come up with mixes which will translate propperly, that is and will be the only reason that NS10s are around, they are sonically absolut shite!! but they are around for decades (from a time where they have been the first mass produced studio speakers, not because they are any good!), so everyone knows them and is able to compensate!!

    that why it is not a very good idea either to swapp every couple of month your monitoring...

    oh, and i forgot to add, it certainly depends as well on what you whant to achieve, e.g. what you mix for, if you are interested that your music sounds good on any twat radio or crap hifi system, then yeas you are well of with something like NS10s, i for example don't care about it at all, i mix mainly (or better say it's my prior interest!) electronic dance music for clubs, not radios, so i am interested to make a mix that blows your pants off on a serious PA, here NS10s for example suck LOL, just kiddin', i can spot straight stuff played on a serious PA mixed on 10s... LOL... once again!

    what i try to say is not that they are bad in any way, just keep the "purpose" in mind, too! and get propperly used to what you have.
    i know a guy who creates mind-blowing mixes on some +10 year old lttle home hifi tannoys powered by an 35watt NAD hifi amp which has over 15 years on his back!!!
    the rest of his gear is prime stuff, and he wan't change his "monitors" for a penny ''cause he knows them inside out!

    just my experience...

    the mix is only as good as the person, not the gear.
    still no argument that a pair of nice monitors are great to have, but keep it real, a good pair doesn't make you to a prime mixer!
  6. Antho

    Antho Guest

    That's true...it's highly important to get to know your systems flaws no matter what level it's at, and no matter how much trapping and absorption you have setup up in your control room.

    How do you get to know your mons though?

    reference CD's!

    You gather a good hearty selection of commercially released music thats akin to the sound you are after, and you use this as a 'deficiency/efficiency' test for your system. And you keep using it! you keep referring back to it during the course of a session, oir a week, or a month... it's so easy to lose perspective on a mix no matter how good your mons are.

    Of course, you can go and buy dynaudio BM6 or 15a's, or B & W nautilaus's, or high end ADAM's and that league and never have a problem again with translation, but it gets pricey. Seriously though, I CANNOT RECOMMEND IT ENOUGH!!!

    I shelled out for the Dyne BM15a's and I've never looked back. Their translation capability , couple with some short learning time, is second to none. Bottom end, imaging, depth, overall balance....these beasties are just somehow designed to take the pain away that you speak of:

    the pain of "lost in translation" :)

    it's gone.....gone!

    Still, i wont get cocky, cos when travelling, i still need that reference CD like anyone else....its just so important.

    Also...no matter how good your rref CD, get the best mons you can afford...and get them before other gear IMO.

    It's all well and great getting to know a systems flaws, but getting a system that eliminates flaws in monitoring by exposing flaws in mixes (i.e telling the truth as much as possible) is the way to go...then you learn that system and you home free..you mixes will rock da haus.

    There's light at the end of the tunnel so to speak...
  7. axel

    axel Guest

    yupp, that's fine to get the best you can, but as you mentioned, not every situation or studio runs the same conditions :D
  8. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    77 Sunset Lane.
    This has been gone over a bazillion times ... but here goes again.

    I agree with you Arthur. The whole idea of a studio monitor is to tell you the ugly truth. Not to "put lipstick on the pig".

    I have been using for the past 10 years now, a pair of Tannoy System 12II DMTs as my main large monitors .... and they sound great! But if I try to mix on them, I always have problems. I also have a pair of NS10ms, which when I mix on, my mixes always transelate.

    I always check mixes performed with the NS10m's on the Tannoys and a pair of Auratones to insure the highs and lows are correct and that everything sounds decent on speakers that you would find in a cheap car stereo or a TV.

    I spell checked. Happy?
  9. I think that's one good reason about have a wide choice of monitors.

    For example, everything I've ever mixed on Truths has translated very well to other systems for me. However, I got to use a pair of Genelecs and, after drooling like an army man on leave for a couple days overseas, found that I couldn't get anything to translate. Out of everything I've mixed on, I find that just going straight from the console out to an '82 Kenwood KA-3500 amplifier and into '84 Sharp CP-8120's give me the best results. It just goes to show that you have to get to know your system and whatever system you know best is what will end up working for you.

    My half-educated theory on different responses to monitors is that not everyone's ears respond the same way. Its like a response curve for speakers, you have a response curve for your ear. Its just a matter of finding what works best.
  10. RandomGuest

    RandomGuest Guest

    Feb 10, 2001
    About the NS10's...
    I had O.K. results from the Yamaha NS10's. My major b!tch was "not enough" low end. I think the roll off is around 45Hz on the NS10's. And that never cut it, as far as I was concerned.

    I liked your quote Brian. I agree as well.
    Near field speakers are like women. :twisted:
    The ones that you can get to know, are "fun" to work on. :)
    And the ones that keep you guessing, just make it harder to get the end result (you want) desired.
  11. Antho

    Antho Guest

    Yeah, NS10's are soso...IMO.

    But if you can mix on them, if you know them ok...they can get a great translation. I never liked them, but gazillions have used them to great advantage,.

    Brian, I agree...the Truths translate mixes very well...

    At least for electronica..I can't comment on other music for those. I have a friend who uses the truths, who has a lot more released music than I...and he brings his mixes over to 'check' on the Dynaudio's and various other mons I have...and i'm always impressed by the clarity and crispness of his mixes.

    The only area I have issues with with the truths is with the bottom end. It seems a bit vaue, and the mixes seem a bit inclined to be vague on the bottom end...ie: need some work down there.

    Still, I had the same problem with NS10's, KRK K-Roks, JBL LSR's and genelecs, so that's certainly saying sometin!

    The only mons that got rid of my inherent bottom end issues was the Dynes...baring in mind I do a lot of stuff which incorporates lo subs. My K-roks for instance were great for translating with a NAD amp but for the low end, which I was always guessing on...

    I don't like guessing.

    I'm prepared to shell out the big bucks to NOt guess....before preamps, before converters, before anything else....I want to be able to HEAR what is going on there for a fact...

    untill then, the other upgrades to me are a waste of time. If you can't hear it, how the hell can you judge it? or tweak it accurately? Or spend money knowing that what you bought is really what you like hearing?

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