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Crawling along... trying to walk!

Discussion in 'Recording' started by MadMax, Apr 10, 2004.

  1. MadMax

    MadMax Well-Known Member

    In great anticipation of receiving my "new" megamix.. (scored one Friday! YEAH ME!)...

    My first work will be obviously to get the unit up and running as quickly as paractical... but after that I've got a project to work on getting mixed. It's a gospel project... really good southern gospel.

    My specific question is this;

    I'm working on trying to get a really PHAT B3. I'm still not pleased with what I'm getting so far...

    My chain:
    Low-panned 1/3 R- dbx266 hard knee 4:1 - Bused 3-4
    eq: 15k Flat, 60 -6db, 500 +3db (narrow Q), 2k -12db (rotor sqeek)
    Hi-panned 1/3 L-dbx266 soft knee 6:1 - Bused 3-4
    eq: 15k Flat, 60 -16db, 1k -3db (kinda narrow Q), 5k -3db

    Bus 3-4 - Onboard Valves "just" hummin' in red - ComposerPro 2:1 Hard Knee

    Symetrix Dual Delay 1@20mS 2@50mS - Panned Hard R-L
    MPX100 - Plate - Fairly small

    My overall impression is that the organ, while sitting in the mix just fine, doesn't have the "WOW!" that I'm looking for. It's got a "hint" of growel from the valves that I'm looking for, but just doesn't seem to to have the presence that I want. The verb and delay are way down in the mix and are there adding the "space" I'm looking for, but again... it just doesn't have that UMPH!

    What am I missing here?

    The bass player is just a monster and I don't really know if I should cut more @400 to bring the leslie back in or what...
  2. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    you killed the presense with your eq. less is more...if any. All you really need to do is use a high pass filter at around 60-80 and balance it in the mix properly.
  3. MadMax

    MadMax Well-Known Member


    That's more or less what I originally started with, but the rotor squeek is really annoying, (I sprayed me bejezus out of it w/WD-40 during the tracking and got rid of as much of it as I could.)... maybe a compromise? e.g. let the high side roll flat? and just let there be squeek?

    With the new automation, I should be able to drop the B3 down out of the lime-light enough so that #*(&%^% squeek gets buried somewhat shouldn't I?... or should I just let it sit there in all it's glory and let the listener negate the sound?
  4. Sebatron

    Sebatron Well-Known Member

    Cut the Comps out ,,, they're only going to raise the noise floor by squashing the dynamic range.
    If it's a valve power amp in the B3 , it'll be narrow enough as it is.
    Yes ,, do a Rumble Cut @ around 80 hz ,, cut out all that circuitry and the goodness will return.... 8)
  5. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    I was gonna say nice and flat with no processing and a sweet little 80hz cut but the big guys beat me to it.The one question I gotta ask....Does the Leslie have that growl in the room? Not all Hammonds have that sound...at least they're all somewhat different in their harmonic content as well as the tube driven thing.But yeah...get thy compressor out of the Lords instrument!
  6. MadMax

    MadMax Well-Known Member

    OK, comps are about to be pulled... I gotta' nother problem that needs to be addressed then...

    I've got 30 live tracks of horns, flute, sax, bass, rythym guitar, lead guitar, Kurtz, QS8, drums, aux perc, latin perc., the B3, 30 member choir and two lead vocals.

    How do you guys propose that ALL that stuff that's jumping all over the B3 get through, and still let the B3 through without ANY compression? (It's really the two pianos and the lead that are competeing the worst.)

    The leslie didn't have the growel at tracking. This is an afterthought by the client. It works, but bringing in the growel from the valves gives me too much B3... thus... comps to try to hold it together and tame the thing a bit.

    Thus sayeth the lord producer... can I have some more B3?...and maketh it growel? And complieth did I saying; I now haveth a noise which cometh from hell. And it was deemed a problem for the AE.
  7. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    The sound of the rotor is port of the charm. But what you may need to do, and What I would do is try positioning the mics to minimize the noise...don't woory too much about it. Also, pan competerly wide...It'll leave more room for vocals up the middle. One last thing, use the same ratio, etc on the compression. You don't need alot of compression. Trythe mics close and far...see what works best in the song.
  8. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    If you have that much stuff going on, try making the B3 mono by panning both tracks the same....use a little compression...3:1 or 4:1 just a couple of db of gain reduction should do, medium attack and release. If the B3 gets panned one way, pan the piano opposite so they comp off of each other. Use a chamber or a dark plate as a general verb and add a taste to the B3. have fun...get the track sounding great then drop the vocals in. Use hi pass filters on everything but kick drum and bass. Get the bass up loud, let the kick be the punch for the bass. Gtrs can get cut all the way up to 300hz and then and a little 300 back a wth a bell shaped lo EQ. Q@1.6. also a little 5k on the gtrs...too much gtr mid's? (it depends if they were mic'd to striaght on the voice coil) cut around 3.5k.
    Happy Easter
  9. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Thats why hes Da Recorderman! I thought after our posts earlier today that it would get nailed down tight....but then you listed all the instruments going on and my first thought was MIDRANGE HELL!!Kee-rist ya got so many instruments in the same tonal and melodic range theres no wonder its a competition.When it gets that busy for me, its 'mono up and cut'.....Dont worry at all what the solo'd tracks of guitars sound like alone....and get those keys to either play in different octaves or positions,or like RM said get em the heck away from each other.In a mix that busy its imperative to choose one or two instruments to be the feature and everything else to be supportive.Its also important to be able to cut one or two loose in certain passages.....hopefully these guys are pros and dont need to hear themselves all the time in every mix.Less is ALWAYS more.Your mute button is your best friend.
  10. quartermoonpro

    quartermoonpro Active Member

    I just finished a blues project containing a full horn section, lots of different key parts, including B3 on some songs, extra percussion, you get the idea.

    RM's advise is spot on! What I did was to break out the "band" into areas, as if they were on a stage. I panned the horns on the left, added a bit quick delay to them for space and then I panned all the key parts to the right and I left them for all intents dry. Keep in mind that they aren't dramatically panned, but more like at 9 and 3. Even if your B3 has a solo or something, I'd leave it panned in position, less problems with phase and it's more realistic from a soundstage philosophy.
  11. MadMax

    MadMax Well-Known Member

    Yup, that's the "battle of midrange blues"

    Thankfully the horns, sax and flute parts are just vamps and accents.

    The B3, bass and kick/snare are the drive. (no kiddin', huh?)

    The Kurz and QS8 are currently spread to 3 and 9 o'clock respecfully. I personally don't think it sounds too natural if I spread em' out much further, but should I do it to get it (the B3) to fit?

    I guess it's going to be the B3 closer to the middle in a mono up. I'll definitely ease off the compression, loosen up on the eq, and let the delay and plate add the space out in hard L-R pan.

    The sonic lay out has been a real challenge... whew! I'll try a bit of ASCII art here...

    Layer 1 ************Vox 1*********Vox 2*************
    Layer 2 Choir Verb**<------------Choir------------>**Choir Verb
    Layer 3 *******OH T5 T4 T3 Bass/Kik Sn T2 T1 OH*********
    Layer 4 Dly1**** Kurz*****B3Lo-><- B3Hi*****Qs8****Dly2
    Layer 5 SaxDly/Flute latin/Perc Horns Sax FluteDly
    Layer 6 **********Rythym************Lead************
    Layer 7 Vox Vrb***Vox Dly**************Vox Dly***Vox Verb

    Man, is it busy in there!
  12. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    I think you should try panning wider...you're still going for a pretty mono mix with those pans...lots of things too close on top of each other in the middle. try on of those keys way over to about 9, over to 8 with the other. Also, when listening for panning one trick to try is to listen in mono...when you find magic spots of panning, the mix will be more in focus. Mono will show that up quicker. All of our two ears are usually non symmetrical freq. wise in relationship to each other... so mono is the great leveler..try it.
  13. MadMax

    MadMax Well-Known Member


    I've admittitedly been a bit timid about pushing those keys (and in general, most instruments) way out there and really opening up the soundfield...

    A couple of other places I frequently read, there seems to be almost a hysteria about "keeping the soundfield realistic" kinda' thing goin' on. I guess the old rule that "There ain't no stinking rules!" applies here?

    A good friend of mine keeps harping on the fact that "they" turn all the way up and "they" turn all the way down for a reason. It's all about knowing when to turn what, how far... and I'm probably guilty of "it ain't far enough, yet."

    I've already gotten in the habit of mono listening. Just not quite knowing that there's still some more "rules" to break and relying more on what I'm hearing (or NOT hearing) more than trying to stay within some "guideline." Ahhhh, the folly of "old" youth...

    I'm supposed to work on the mix tomorrow night so I think I'll slide down to the "kitchen" and try rattlin' some pans.

    Again... THANX!

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