cucco or anyone who has samples: Gefell, Josephine or Beyer.

Discussion in 'Live Sound' started by 2db, Feb 20, 2006.

  1. 2db

    2db Guest

    cucco or anyone who has samples:

    I am in the market for a different pair of overhead piano mic's, to use for FIELD RECORDING ie concerts etc..

    I record acoustic piano jazz trio's on location. I am looking at Gefell, Josephsons or Beyer.

    Would any of you have sound samples or recordings using these mic's on a grand piano.

    My concern is bleed, the piano lid is always at full stick and I get a lot of drums in the piano mic.

    I presently am using 414's 441's and C12VR. They are close to the sound I want but no cigar.

    Any suggestions and samples would be greatly appreciated.

  2. Cucco

    Cucco Distinguished Member

    Mar 8, 2004
    Fredericksburg, VA

    Gefell - I use the M296 - you'd get WAY too much bleed off of these as their off-axis pickup is VERY sensitive, even for an omni's standards.

    Josephsons? (err, Josephines...) - In general are phenomenal microphones. Their cardioids have a very smooth response off axis, so anything that they do pick up should be fine.

    Beyer - I use and/or own M130s and M160s. Both would be fine, but again, the 130 is a bidirectional mic, therefore, off axis pickup will be a problem.

    Of the above, for jazz piano, I would only use the Beyers. I would do a blum pair of M130s placed in the bow of the instrument - playing with distance and height. I would immediately reach for the EQ on this application as they would tend to be a tad dark for jazz piano.

    For Jazz Piano, I almost always reach for a pair of Audix SCX25s and mount them inside the piano - especially when I know there will be other mics picking up the piano (giving it more depth than a close mic'ed piano can provide).

    Another mic that I like to use is the AKG Blueline (using the Audix piano mounts) in omni. The AKGs aren't as sensitive off-axis as my Gefells or Schoeps, though are still a respectable omni sound. They pick up the fullness of the piano and the presence of a close mic system.

    Tough to say which I prefer, but I tend to reach for the Audix pair more often lately.

    I would gladly provide you samples, but I have to admit - the recordings I've made with piano in the past year or so have all been - how does one put it....crap. Either the performance was a nightmare or the hall was a nightmare (more in that latter category.)

    I will be doing some good piano work here in the near future though and we're in the process of picking out the venue right now for good acoustics. We'll see what comes of it.

  3. FifthCircle

    FifthCircle Well-Known Member

    Feb 12, 2001
    Los Angeles, CA
    Home Page:
    Not sure if I have samples handy, but I have good luck with the gefell M930 for jazz piano. The pattern is a touch sloppy, but the small size allows you to get it in close when needed.

    Otherwise, for jazz piano, there are a few tricks I do- remove the lid (works great in some cases as you don't get drums reflecting in from the lid into the mics), move the piano's position to let the lid work as baffle (in sessions), try to aim the mics so the null is at the drums, use hypercardiod mics or figure 8 mics. Use the null to your advantage. I'll sometimes take the lid off and use royers or aim the royers so that the null of the fig-8 aims towards the drums and I dont' get a lot of slop off the lid (aiming the mics on their sides).

  4. 2db

    2db Guest

    Thanks guys-I guess I should have mentioned the mic model?

    Gefell M930 or UMT70S

    Josephsons e22s

    Beyer two m160

    Hope this helps-!!

  5. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Guest

    Sep 26, 2005
    For jazz piano I truly love the Beyer M160s! They are a hyper-cardioid ribbon. They are far less interfered with by the other ambient instruments surrounding the piano. As ribbons go, they produce a substantially lower output level than a condenser microphone and therefore require a good sounding preamplifier with substantial gain. Being a ribbon, they also have superior transient response characteristics. You will in all probability also want to add a few DB at 10kHz since they have that classic high frequency roll off that most ribbons exhibit. They will certainly complement a jazz piano. Velvety smooth and lush.

    I love ribbons
    just not in my hair
    Ms. Remy Ann David
  6. mdemeyer

    mdemeyer Active Member

    Dec 22, 2004
    Dublin, CA USA

    Any tips on the locations you have found work well for the SCX-25's (inside the piano)? I got a pair recently and am finding some nice uses for them, also. But have not tried any 'interior' piano mountings...

  7. 2db

    2db Guest

    Remy, would you speak a little, on what you found to be the best string or hammer placement for the M160's? Also how high off the strings are they placed.

    I generally use 414, 441 or C12VR and they each have different placement that works best for their mic sensitivity.

    I do have one AEA R84 but I am looking for a more matched isolated mic pattern in the M160.

  8. 2db

    2db Guest

  9. Cucco

    Cucco Distinguished Member

    Mar 8, 2004
    Fredericksburg, VA
    Michael -

    Sorry for the extreme delay in responding. I've been so swamped lately, I have only gotten to reply to maybe 1 to 2 posts a week! (Busy is good though - but I'm about 3 weeks behind right now....ARRRGGHH)

    As for the positioning of the SCX-25s - I like to go about a 1/3 of the way down the soundboard and place one angled slightly towards the keys. This should be your "high" mic. The low mic can face downwards into the strings. I keep the mics' position parallel with the keys. For more jazzy sounds, I move closer to the bridge nearest the hammers. For more definition in classical piano, I move more towards the lower bridge.

    This combination works fine for short and long stick as well as lid off. For closed lid, I wouldn't do it. It will sound WAY too live and jumbled.

  10. BigRay

    BigRay Guest

    Gefell M930, Gefell M300, and Schoeps Mk2s

    gefells were ortf, schoeps were jecklin

    >>davbg1>>mytek stereo 192>>>sd722

    dithered to 16/44 with samplitude using pow-r 3 type 3/


    not a great piano, and horrible acoustic, but its a rough idea..

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