Decca Tree with mk21

Discussion in 'Location Recording' started by jazzbutcher, Feb 13, 2005.

  1. jazzbutcher

    jazzbutcher Guest

    Howdy,

    Looks like I will be helping out with a symphony recording soon and the plan is to use a Decca Tree with Schoeps mk21's. I have read discussions of the Decca Tree where people suggest aiming the 'front' of the omni mics inward/downward towards the orchestra. The reason given for this is that even omnis become directional at higher frequencies.

    So, my question is, has anyone used mk21's in a Decca Tree? If so, would you really suggest following that advice about pointing the mics inward, or would it not make more sense to point all the mics forward and slightly down (towards the symphony, but with the rear of the mics pointed towards the audience to minimize reflections from the rear of the hall?? I was guessing that having the "dull" side of the mk21 omnis pointing towards the back of the hall would help reject unwanted noise/reflections.

    Any advice appreciated.


    thanks,

    -dave
     
  2. FifthCircle

    FifthCircle Well-Known Member

    Absolutely-

    MK-21's make a great decca tree. Comes quite close to the pattern you get with the balls on a Schoeps MK2. Mid range is a bit more directional, but it still works fine. When I use a tree, I will point the two outer mics towards the second stand of basses and the harpists (usually between first and second violins). Means that they are aimed slightly in and back in to the orchestra. Obviously, it depends on the room and the group on how they are spaced and angled, but that is what I find provides a good image for the orchestra. It is ok if the end two mics are aimed a bit further out because your center mic is providing you with the center of the image that you would otherwise loose.

    --Ben
     
  3. Cucco

    Cucco Distinguished Member

    I'm with Ben on this one. I would go one step further though and insist that it's probably advisable NOT to aim the mics forward, but the sides. As Ben points out, the 21s are quite a bit more directional in the critical midrange area and when I've heard DT done this way, you can hear lumps in the soundstage.

    BTW, I usually avoid DT at all costs, but if I had to do it, I couldn't think of a better mic to do it with. I favor those over the M50s.

    J...
     
  4. FifthCircle

    FifthCircle Well-Known Member

    Give me a set of M50's any day... Especially the originals. What an absolutely wonderous mic. There are a lot of mics that make good trees, but the M50 is the real deal as far as I'm concerned...

    Other good mics for trees are MKH800's, MK2 with the balls, Schoeps 221B's with balls...

    I'll be doing a modified tree (well, sort of L-C-R spots) on a brass group that I'll be recording with a large choir and organ and I need to decide whether to use Royer Ribbons or vintage tube mics for it (UM57's)...

    --Ben
     
  5. ptr

    ptr Active Member

    Ben,

    I've been having serious thaughts about getting a pair of MKH 800's, but I cant seem to find any info on "balls" for this microfone @ sennheiser.com?

    Could You please point to some information or tell us more Yourself!
    Is this an add-on or a mod or a different version of the mic?

    (Another thread perhaps?)

    /ptr
     
  6. Cucco

    Cucco Distinguished Member

    ptr:

    The balls to which Ben refers are only available for the Schoeps MK series microphones, not the MKH800. DPA has similar products, but not quite the same.

    The information can be found here:
    http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/ka.html
    and these are available from Cascade Media and Posthorn here in the states.

    J...
     
  7. FifthCircle

    FifthCircle Well-Known Member

    MKH 800's are side address and cannot take the balls.... Scheops, Neumann, DPA all sell spheres to place at the end of the mic and create a pattern that is similar to an M50. The idea of putting balls at the ends of the mics came from engineers that would drill out golf balls and place them on the ends of Schoeps 221B's for decca trees.

    --Ben
     
  8. MasonMedia

    MasonMedia Guest

    For more ideas on Deca Tree techniques,
    check-out Ron Streicher's article:

    http://www.wesdooley.com/pdf/Surround_Sound_Decca_Tree-urtext.pdf


    Ben, there maybe some confusion about the technical effect of adding a ball to an omni microphone. It does not modify the directivity. Rather there is a subtle +2db to +3db boost from ~1K to 8K. The low ranges are not touched. It's not really similar to an MK21 from the pattern perspective.


    Peter.
     
  9. ptr

    ptr Active Member

    ยด

    OK, I actualy read the MK2 as beeing MKH800 Mk2 (ie. Mark two).. That's why I was a bit perplexed wanting to know stuff.. Thanks for making it clear! :wink:

    BTW I was quite aware of some people putting balls on diverse cigar-mikes..

    /ptr
     
  10. Cucco

    Cucco Distinguished Member

    I recently had a pair of Large Diaphragm Condensors with balls and one without in the same case. Everytime I opened the case, I kept finding new small diaphragm condensors.

    I sent the mic with balls to Audio Upgrades and they "fixed" it. Since then, I haven't had the problems.

    :? :lol:
     
  11. FifthCircle

    FifthCircle Well-Known Member

    Groan.... :? (took me a minute...)

    --Ben
     
  12. Sonarerec

    Sonarerec Guest

    Did they do any testing for different sound signatures of various dimple patterns?

    Sorry, couldn't resist.......

    Rich
     
  13. FifthCircle

    FifthCircle Well-Known Member

    Not sure about that, but there were some serious questions about the analog versus the digital versions. (OK... So we're talking some urban legend, but hey- it is a good story... :? )


    --Ben
     
  14. maintiger

    maintiger Well-Known Member

    I would think it would make for a ballsy recording... :D
     
  15. jazzbutcher

    jazzbutcher Guest

    Wascally Wabbits and omni mics

    That was pretty funny about the wabbits... Good one!

    Thanks to everyone for the info on the mk21's. I have read many good things about them, and have gotten to use them once before, but never in a Decca Tree, so, this should be exciting, or a disaster! We'll see...

    Ben, when you say "slightly in and back in to the orchestra", I am guessing that you mean the mics should be pointed slightly downwards into the orchestra but that the left mic should be pointed to the left of the center mic and the right mic should be pointed right of the center mic.

    thanks,

    -dave
     
  16. Sonarerec

    Sonarerec Guest

    For those interested in M50 substitutes, Shawn Murphy has opined that the closest thing to an M50c he knew of is a Schoeps M222 with MK2H and balls.

    He should know, since he has about 6 M50cs! And from my experience with M150, they are NOT the same as the original.

    Rich
     

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