delays with plugins in pro-tools mixing

Discussion in 'Mixing & Editing' started by lukee, Jan 1, 2002.

  1. lukee

    lukee Guest

    hi,

    I`ve got a TDM mix system and was wondering whats the best way to deal with the delays you get in a mix on pro-tools (about 4 to 50 ms I think)
    Do I have to use TimeAdjuster or not? What about drums, having different plugins on different tracks?

    :w:
     
  2. RandomGuest

    RandomGuest Guest

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2001
    What you have to do is learn how to see the total delay on each channel of the drums - then use time adjuster to make all the delays the same number (the highest) - then there will be no phase problems within a multi mic drum set up (or any other multi mic set up)

    Do the same with any tracks recorded with two mic's or a mic and a DI for instance Bass amp + DI..

    Hopefully the new Pro Tools (out in Summer) will do this automatically.
     
  3. lukee

    lukee Guest

    thanks jules - think I got that

    what about the delay between drums and bass tracks - is 40 already kind of a laidback feel or is it to short to hear it - what about vocals?? does anybody out there can give me any starting-rules to handle the delay-stuff??

    thanx a lot
     
  4. RandomGuest

    RandomGuest Guest

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2001
    Err 40 samples is er.. perhaps not even ONE millisecond (Ahem! any one here know the math?) :)
     
  5. Ang1970

    Ang1970 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2000
    At 44.1k, 1ms = 44.1 samples
    At 48k, 1ms = 48 samples

    With disconnected elements, as little as 1 or 2 ms can affect the "feel" of the timing. With phase, 1 sample moves your mic by about a quarter inch. Some people get their mic positioning down to 1/8 inch accuracy. To them, 40 samples would be a disaster.
     
  6. Bob Olhsson

    Bob Olhsson Distinguished Member

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    Feb 13, 2001
    Location:
    Nashville TN
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    It's pretty common to use Voc-Allign on tuned vocal parts to reallign their timing to that of the originals.
     
  7. RandomGuest

    RandomGuest Guest

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2001
    "It's pretty common to use Voc-Allign on tuned vocal parts to reallign their timing to that of the
    originals."

    I had been daydreaming of that.. good one

    phew! After tuning and voc align... gonna sound pretty plastic I geuss...

    Must try it out someday..

    :)
     
  8. Hi Lukee,

    If you are using a Mac, command-click in the volume display twice to show the amount of delay (in samples) for each track. You can then either nudge the track back by that number of samples or apply the time adjuster plug to every other track. This works for both TDM and LE versions of PT.

    Greg
     
  9. Mark Haliday

    Mark Haliday Guest

    >>Hopefully the new Pro Tools (out in Summer) will do this automatically.<<

    I think there is some misunderstanding as to why TDM plugs are not delay compensated.

    The main reason being that they do not interfere with disk access and they work realtime, like in an standalone audio processor or digital console. You can hear your stuff live through the TDM hardware with all the plugins active and that means that when punching in a whole band on a multitrack session you get the same delay whether in direct monitoring or "tape return" like mode.

    I am a firm believer that the clear separation in TDM systems between file activity and audio DSP partly accounts for its high stability.

    Of course I am waiting like everyone else for a live, fast and clever way to shift tracks to compensate without using the nudge function. But I would not do this while recording. Only when I choose, while mixing.

    However the *real* solution is for all plugin makers to go the way McDSP, Sony and others have gone that is having very small latency (around 3 or 4 samples). This may mean going for mix cards or the next generation since I don't know if DSP farms can keep up.
    Sure, having more than 300samples latency like Waves C1 is just not acceptable anymore, even if it allows for fancy pre detection of peaks.

    my 2 euro-cents
     
  10. Bob Olhsson

    Bob Olhsson Distinguished Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Nashville TN
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    There is no excuse for software that doesn't compensate all of the latency for trackplug-ins All you need to do is offset the playback of the track. No DSP is needed at all.
     
  11. RandomGuest

    RandomGuest Guest

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2001
    Well at least we are all united in wanting it fixed ASAP!
    :)
     
  12. Mark Haliday

    Mark Haliday Guest

    >>There is no excuse for software that doesn't compensate all of the latency for trackplug-ins All you need to do is offset the playback of the track. No DSP is needed at all.<<

    Of course you have a point and I am waiting for a solution like everyone else, but that only solves half the problem : How do you deal with plugins auditionned live ?
    - If you are recording drums and EQ ing on the monitoring, a very common configuration in pop rock studio work, you are stuck unless you want to shift brainwaves in the musicians heads... ;)
    - The whole point of TDM is beeing able to work like on a mixing board, something native systems have problem with. They have to resort to all kind of tricks like direct monitoring which is often confusing things even more
    To me 3 or 4 samples like good recent plugs is ok and if I really need precise phase relationship then time adjuster will do the trick most of the time.
    I have a hunch however that the main reason for the delay compensation not beeing implemented yet in TDM has to do with compatibility with pre-PCI old hardware.


    Mark Haliday
     

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