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Doubling effect

Discussion in 'Recording' started by BeatAddik, Jul 23, 2005.

  1. BeatAddik

    BeatAddik Guest

    Que paso everybody? Is there way to produce a doubling effect for vocals using cubase or adobe audition (cool edit pro)?
     
  2. David French

    David French Well-Known Member

    Sí, cántelo dos veces.
     
  3. BeatAddik

    BeatAddik Guest

    Thanks for the info but I want it to come in may be a millisecond later.
     
  4. rhydian

    rhydian Active Member

    doubling

    Hi

    Don't use cubase myself. However, I can recommend the antares avp-1. Works as an insert and one input gives two vocal outputs if desired (along with, autotuning any out of tune vox, modelling a valve/other mic, eq, compression and de-essing!).

    Any VST chorus/delay plug in should do the job of thickening up vocals. There's a good one on the UAD-1 card.

    Singing it twice would also do the trick. Worked for Robert Plant/Led Zep! Can sound interesting when the vox are not an exact duplicate.

    Rhydian
     
  5. CoyoteTrax

    CoyoteTrax Well-Known Member

    Zappa doubled his vox too and a lot Rob Halford stuff sounds doubled (Sad Wings of Destiny...Sin After Sin...Point of Entry, etc.)
     
  6. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

    I just highlight the track and nudge it over a couple miliseconds
     
  7. Randyman...

    Randyman... Well-Known Member

    The Waves Native Transform Bundle has the "Doublers" that are pretty flexible, and this single plug-in can achieve what would usually require copying a track 2, 3, or 4 times plus nudging and adding modulation effetcs.

    :cool:
     
  8. supercharry

    supercharry Guest

    I would say its better to sing it twice.......
     
  9. Randyman...

    Randyman... Well-Known Member

    True, but whan doing simple panning with a mono source, the Waves Doubler will allow you to delay one side of the signal easily, so you don't have to rely so much on a simple amplitude based pan control, and you can use the haas effect for localization instead. You can use simple delays for this too, but the Doubler makes it total cake IMO - only 1 channel and 1 plug needed.

    The doublers' Modulation also adds cool chorus/ double take type effects after the fact.

    Sometimes double takes just don't work out all that well depending on the player. It is good to have other options avalible IMO.

    As always - check for mono compatibility...

    :cool:
     
  10. Chance

    Chance Guest

    Something I learned from Zappa by seeing him work. When he would record his second ( doubled ) vox, he would slow the transport down 5%, then record. Sometimes he would speed it up when doing the 2nd vox. What this did, was to force him to sing differently because of the key change. It would force a different timber in his vox. When played back at the normal 30ips, sure it sounds doubled but real FAT and thick. When I got my HDR, I discovered that I can't do that on it, but am exploring other avenues to achieve that effect.
     
  11. CoyoteTrax

    CoyoteTrax Well-Known Member


    All of these things work for me and make doubling tracks a little more interesting:

    1) different mic (or cardioid pattern)
    2) different pre's
    3) different tubes
    4) patch in an antique tube-driven line amplifier
    5) Deliberately singing with a different attitude, inflection, or anything to change the "energy" of your voice.
    6) Even something as simple as taking a step back from the mic when you do the "double-take" to change the proximity effect.
    7) Flip the phase switch on your preamp for that channel
    8) or if your mic has a -10dB pad, hit that.
    9) Do the take in a different room
    10) or use a different compressor.
    11) Change a word here or there or with guitars change the arrangement or chord progression slightly.

    Those are just a few more things you can do to shake things up a bit.
     
  12. Chance

    Chance Guest

    If those things work for you then cool. It would seem to me that if you changed the attitude of the vox, there would be a conflict. Different tubes or pre's ? I don't see the point. Changing a word here or there, to me, would sound like someone made a mistake. The whole idea of doubling, for the most part, is to sound like one vocal, but with a unique sound. What I watched Zappa do was to do identical takes, every inflection, every note, every thing on the doubled track was identical except since it was recorded 5% slower ( or faster ) he had to sing in a different key which might have been harder to reach certain notes causing him to sing with different timber. This made him use his vocal chords in a different mannor all the while his phrasing EXACTLY MATCHED the original take.
    I look at it much like compression. If you can hear compression working, you're not using it correctly. ( unless you are using it for an effect ie. pumping etc )
    As far as changing arrangements and progressions of a doubled track?
    I really don't want to go there.
     
  13. CoyoteTrax

    CoyoteTrax Well-Known Member


    You obviously haven't paid much attention to Robert Plant's work with Zeppelin then and more recently his vocals on the album "Walking into Clarksdale" which was a pretty brilliant production and recording.

    I was also offering creative ways to "shake things up" not make them exactly the same with just a little different color (as Zappa did).

    "If you can hear compression working you're not using it properly"??? What planet does that philosophy come from? I understand sometimes that may be the case but it certainly is not a rule and quite often is the opposite of using compression for effect (which is done quite frequently). You've never compressed the doubled vocals just on the Right channel or the Left channel just for effect?

    No offense man and please don't take this the wrong way, but that sounds like engineering in a vacuum
     
  14. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    I think I'll listen to what Chance has to offer over Coyote Trax's antagonistic reply, seeing as Chance makes real records for established artists and record companies in LA and has a quantifiable track record while "CT" remains an unknown quanity from New Mexico (I didn't know there was a thriving music scene in the "Land of Enchantment") with no lnks or name to identify him with (in other words, who is this guy?). My 2 cents.
     
  15. jonyoung

    jonyoung Well-Known Member

    BeatAddik wrote:

    It takes roughly 10- 20ms for your ear to perceive a doubling effect. Either the nudge on a cloned track, or a decent delay plug can do it for ya.
     
  16. CoyoteTrax

    CoyoteTrax Well-Known Member

    I'm nobody. And anyone's welcome (including you Foster) to know exactly who I am...right here:

    http://www.soundclick.com/pro/default.cfm?BandID=117445&content=music

    But it's sarcastic and insulting comments from you Foster like ["I didn't know there was a thriving music scene in the "Land of Enchantment" "] that make you such an incideous and unwelcoming energy here at RO. You're too often willing to insult an entire group of people or users in order to bash one person. And more often than not, your "opinions" as you call them are not opinions at all but rather condemnations that are a bit extreme. But that's just my opinion. As I said already, I'm nobody.

    There Is absoutely a thriving music scene here in New Mexico. There's amazing music here and a lot of fantastic musicians live here. Just because it's not part of the California scene doesn't make it Not So. There's no reason Foster to bash musicians in New Mexico just because they live and breath here instead of San Francisco or Santa Monica. Lighten up a little.
     
  17. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

    Thats one of the most asshole things I've ever seen. Why don't you go back and see who's antagonizing who, Chance gave one way to double vocals(which for most amatuers wouldn't be that easy) and Coyote simply added a few things to that, then Chance comes back in to basically tell him he's wrong, and when it comes to something like this can it really be wrong, I mean whatever works for you right? I thought as a moderator smart ass comments like that wouldn't be permited or professional. I hope your recordings are more pro than your attitude Kurt cause your negative $*^t really sucks sometimes. And wtf man, you're gonna tell an area of this country that they don't have talent, did Coyote say his area was a hotbed for talent, what spurred on this comment? I'm sorry I didn't realize the only place music should be recorded is LA or NY. I'm no pro but I know what it means to be a professional and IMO you're a joke Kurt.
     
  18. Chance

    Chance Guest

    WOW guys did some body hit a nerve ? ( LOL ) If you will re-read my post, the very first thing I said was "If that works for you, cool" I didn't knock it at all. I have interpreted the word "doubled" as being a clone to the orginal so to speak. If you are seeing double, then you are seeing 2 of the same things. If you start changing the progression, the attitude, or adding different parts and words, then it is not a double anymore is it. I would label the track "added vox" but definately not a doubled track. If I were to record a project here in California and label a track "doubled vox" and it had your suggestions then I would fed-ex it to New York for mixing, and they brought up a track called "doubled" and it had different parts,words, and style, they would think that it was an error. If things work for you great. I know engineers who are great, and work 180 degrees differently. I believe Tom Dowd ( not certain tho ) will start a mix with the vox, and build the mix around that. Others will start with the drums. I won't bash them the same way as not bashing you. As far as where you are located, I too was surprised. Not in a bashing way, but I work coast to coast and have just simply never heard of any music activity in your area. It doesn't make you bad people. If you had a more mild attitude, you would learn a lot from Kurt and everyone on this forum ( I certainly have ) I can relate to your attitude because you sound like me 30 years ago. No offense, and no harm taken.
     
  19. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

    I'm sorry that wasn't geared towards you Chance I'm more pissed at someone else. And really man do you really think the only two places music is made is LA and NY, yeah its ultimately where someone in this business would want to be but to make the type of assumption Kurt did that nothing can be done outside LA and NY is just arrogant and really makes him look bad. I had a lot of respect for the guy and took his advice on more than a few things including not buying the RNP but this just makes me lose most of my respect for him.
     
  20. Chance

    Chance Guest

    I can't speak for anyone else, but it is counter-productive to be pissed at anyone. We're here to share and learn. If you or me don't like something, or are piss'd, lets keep it to ourselves. If we add fuel to this kind of thing, how in the world does that benifit our recording chops ?
    Maybe I should have mentioned that I recorded a great group from Alb NM, except I only remember the guitar player's name was Skip Heitzig
    I don't post here too much as I mostly "glean" ie. absorb what is usefull, and ignore what I can't use. I usually post if there is something I can give back to our craft. I remember as a musician, and being around other musicians, we are a wierd breed of people. Usually it's our way or it's wrong. Musicians are flakey. In a way thats good for the creative side of our industry. When I first started out in the 60's I had certain ways of doing things, ( most were wrong ) and I had engineers telling me how to achieve what I was after, but I wouldn't listen, I prefered the school of hard knocks. I usually read everything even if it's considered not right as many times it will give an idea to get out of the box.
    On a different note but simualr vibe The space shuttle keeps having trouble with its heat shield tiles, but then again an independent team sent up a shuttle twice in one week and their design has no need of a heat shield plus they did it at a fraction of the cost. Things that make you want to go hmm
     
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