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DSP POSTATION II ROCKS !!!!

Discussion in 'Recording' started by Neelesh, Dec 18, 2000.

  1. Neelesh

    Neelesh Guest

    Just got a chance to do a session on the DSP Media's Postation II... it was fantastic ! The quickest session ever !!!! Believe me, anything to with audio AND picture, THIS IS IT !!!! Kicks the Nuendo, Pro Tools and the Soundscape out of the friggin' planet !!!!

    Check it out for yourself.....
     
  2. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Neelesh welcome to RO and, tell us more!

    ------------------
    audiokid
     
  3. Neelesh

    Neelesh Guest

    Well, it has a 32 track digital audio recorder / editor with non linear video, a digital mix engine and a surround monitoring panel ! The editor / the non linear video and the mix engine can be operated through their own optional touch screens. There is no mouse or stupid keyboard shortcuts to remember. It has a dedicated remote control surface, which functions just like a normal analog remote. A fader control surface that is totally automated. The NLV is capable of storing video sync points and can also be used to do basic "CUT PASTE " video editing. We can import AND export EDLs to any non linear video format. Surround panning happens by placing the finger on the picture and moving alongwith it. NO JOYSTICK !!!!! Want more.... check out the system for yourself.

    Can't wait for my next session !!
     
  4. Soundscape

    Soundscape Guest

    ONE VERY BIG CATCH 22!!
    How much is it?????????
    The DSP station was designed with an entirely deferent market focus then us, (Soundscape) and our competitors PT.
    It would be like comparing an MTA console with a Neve VR88 desk!,,,,
    BUT<,, I bet, in a one on one match that Soundscape would give DSP a very strong run for the money and at a very fraction of the cost of a DSP. So who then, is really getting their but kicked? smile.gif


    ------------------
    Joel Gette
    Soundscape Digital
    http://www.soundscape-digital.com
     
  5. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Member

    Hi Neelesh,

    << Believe me, anything to with audio AND picture, THIS IS IT !!!! >>

    Believe me, this is not it, not by a long way. It's extremely limited track count (32 trks) makes it completely unsuitable for professional AV Post work. Even as a composer of music for picture 32 trks is insufficient. I'm not knocking the system itself, for all I know it might be excellent. But with only 32 trks it's only ever going to catch on with the semi-pro or aspiring pro market.

    Greg
     
  6. Pete Gates

    Pete Gates Guest

    >> It's extremely limited track count (32
    >> trks) makes it completely unsuitable for >> professional AV Post work...
    >>
    >> But with only 32 trks it's only ever going
    >> to catch on with the semi-pro or aspiring >> pro market.

    I won't comment on music use as it's not my speciality (just a hobby!) but for lots of dubbing use (my speciality) 32 tracks of playback is plenty (many dubbing theatres use systems with fewer tracks than this). I'm currently working with Fairlight MFX3 Plus which has 24 tracks (I've used various other systems, for instance AudioFile (24 tracks), Akai DD1500 (16 tracks)). Post production work is very different to music.

    Probably more relevantly though the DSP kit is by no means cheap. Also, I too found it initially impressive but lacking in several areas with more in depth use. Comparing it to something like Soundscape is highly unfair as you could buy a Soundscape several times over for the price.
     
  7. Neelesh

    Neelesh Guest

    Pricewise and functionality wise, you cannot compare the Soundscape to the DSP. The DSP is not your small computer "toy". All round DSP are in a MUCH BIGGER league.
     
  8. Soundscape

    Soundscape Guest

    Soundscape is not a "Toy"!
    I am sorry your ignorance proceeds you
     
  9. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Member

    Hi Pete,

    << I won't comment on music use as it's not my speciality (just a hobby!) but for lots of dubbing use (my speciality) 32 tracks of playback is plenty (many dubbing theatres use systems with fewer tracks than this) >>

    I can only comment on my experience working with commercial post houses in London, England. I have never worked on a project where in the final dub they used less than about 130 inputs. The biggest project I did used over 200. All of the post houses use DFC style desks with 256 inputs. DAWs just aren't used in this scenario except in edit suites. The inputs are all tape inputs but the material is usually on different media which is sync'ed. Usually several DA88s as well as many tracks on AudioFile for ADR, sound FX, sync tracks, etc.

    Greg
     
  10. Pete Gates

    Pete Gates Guest

    Greg,
    I don't want to start boring people with details on this one but I'm sure if I jumped in with slightly misinformed comments on music recording you'd feel duty bound to reply.

    I work in a post production facility in London, was head of sound in another one before that and before that was at the BBC for 18 years where I was a dubbing mixer and sound technical consultant.

    >> I have never worked on a project where in >> the final dub they used less than about >> 130 inputs.
    This is not at all uncommon on larger TV drama and is very common on feature films. I never said that you don't end up with that many tracks but they almost never run that many tracks live from a DAW (particularly as in many film dubbing theatres there may not be an in-house system, they'll just use whatever the Dubbing Editor wheels in).

    >>The biggest project I did used over 200. >>All of the post houses use DFC style desks >>with 256 inputs. DAWs just aren't used in >>this scenario except in edit suites.
    As above for the track count. The DAW comment just isn't true, the dubbing editing would have been done on a DAW (except for the increasingly rare occasions when 35MM mag is used). By the final mix a DAW may or may not be running locked to the theatre as they usually go through a divide and conquer approach where dialogue/ADR, backgrounds, spots and foley are broken down into premixes / pre-dubs. This will be why at the final mix stage there may not be a DAW in sight as it will all be running from hard-disk dubbers such as Akai DD8 dubbers or Tascam DA88 tapes or once again even 35MM mag (and yes there will often be large banks of these running by the final stage).

    Different theatres (and remember material can range from a magazine programme insert to feature films) require/have different approaches too, even different theatres in the same place; for example de Lane Lea ,the largest dubbing theatre complex and individual theatre in London's Soho has large film-type dubbing theatres with huge Harrison MPC automated analog desks running onto banks of Akai DD8s whereas their smaller theatres have automated digital Ams-Neve Logic 2 desks which have 24 track AudioFiles built in, these can still be used with banks of dubbers but on documentary material for instance the whole project would all run from the one AudioFile with ancillary inputs from FX returns etc.

    Some London post houses such as Videosonics have tried to encourage keeping as much of the mixing live with as few destructive premixes as possible which will often require 2 AudioFiles (which is what they use) locked to one of their DFCs or Libras.

    Sorry to drone on (even this is a very crunched down perspective) but in the long run it helps everyone in the industry to understand the different ends of it, I've often had composers turn up to dubs completely perplexed by what goes on (and I wouldn't pretend to know everything about what goes on in a recording studio before anyone says anything but I'm always happy to learn!).

    PS as to the other post that called Soundscape a toy compared to a DSP Postation, this is just childish name calling. The Soundscape is a perfectly good system, all good systems have there pros and cons and I've known good work be done on much lesser systems than this.
     
  11. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Member

    Hi Pete,

    << This is not at all uncommon on larger TV drama and is very common on feature films. >>

    Ah ... but that's exactly where I'm coming from. The only work I do is larger TV Drama and feature films. I compose and produce the music usually providing a 4 or 6 channel surround mix on a DA98. I only get to the dubbing theatre for the final mix and by that time, as you say, there is not a DAW in sight.

    Off the top of my head the most recent post houses I've worked with are: Molinaire, DB Post, Magmasters, Video London, Twickenham Film Studios.

    I was just challenging the huge generalisation by Neelesh that for ANYTHING to do with audio and picture the poststation is it. I was just pointing out that in certain areas of AV work, say the final mixing of high quality TV Drama and films, I can't see the Poststation having enough power for the job.

    Greg
     
  12. supersonic C

    supersonic C Guest

    Greg is right. This is why Neve DFCs were built, and Harrisons, and... DAWs are for editing, and are awesome for it. Mixing small format (TV commercials, small films, reels of long films)is fine for A/V, ProTools, Nuendo, PostStation. But look at Enterprise, or Lucas Digital (Skywalker). These places are the tops. They use A/V, ProTools, WaveFrame, Synclav, but for post, not theatre mixing. The DFC or Capricorn is the console of choice. And, btw, the DSP Poststation is over $300k when configured properly for commercial post. See Margarita Mix's web site. DSP is an Aussie company that makes good stuff, at a price. But if there were an absolute best, wouldn't everyone (who could afford it),use it?
     
  13. Pete Gates

    Pete Gates Guest

    >This is why Neve DFCs were built, and >Harrisons, and...
    Well definitely AND; of the 5 theatres Greg listed only one has a DFC and one other has a Harrison MPC (the DFC would definitely get my vote as THE best post mixing desk).

    >DAWs are for editing, and are
    >awesome for it.
    I wouldn't disagree with you at all there. When I 'borrowed' a Postation for a week I was at the BBC and it was as a DAW only configuration (I think this is the root of some of the misunderstanding here; I do only think of it as a DAW not a mixing system)though I did later have a demo of the version with the mixer (it was basically remote controlling a Yamaha 02R which I found a complete lash-up though I gather there are now new options which I haven't seen). I was also trying to be polite about it in my previous posts (I didn't really like the system much at all to be honest).

    >They use A/V, ProTools, WaveFrame, Synclav, >but for post, not theatre mixing.
    Once again, this is not necessarily true. To give a perspective on the way features can be done these days, without me droning on further, I've enclosed a link to an article from AudioMedia.

    Coaster
     
  14. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Member

    Hi Peter,

    << of the 5 theatres Greg listed only one has a DFC and one other has a Harrison MPC >>

    Not entirely true. At Magmasters, DB Post and Molinaire the desks being used in the theatres I was in were Soundtracks DFC desks. Video London used an SSL Avant and Twickenham has their famous Harrison MPC.

    Greg
     
  15. Pete Gates

    Pete Gates Guest

    Yes, entirely true Greg!

    >>At Magmasters, DB Post and Molinaire the >>desks being used in the theatres I was in >>were Soundtracks DFC desks.
    Nope, Magmasters have Soundtracs DPC II desks, they're nice desks but not DFCs, Molinare the same (plus they have an AMS-Neve Logic 1, Logic 3 & one room even has a Mackie d8b.

    DBPost do have an AMS-Neve DFC and a Libra Post too installed recently.

    >>Video London used an SSL Avant and >>Twickenham has their famous Harrison MPC.
    Yep, a very good friend of mine runs one of the Twickenham theatres and I'm acquainted with the other mixer there.
     
  16. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Member

    Hi Peter,

    Yes, you are correct. DFC, DPC II, Avant, Libra, Harrison. The exact makes and models are not important. In my original post I was just making the point about commercial post houses using expensive, large format desks for final dubbing, and I can't see these being replaced by the DSP Postation, at least in the near future.

    If I'd known that there was someone on RO with as much experience of the London post house scene as yourself I'd have been a little more careful with my wording. Although in my defence, I did originally put "DFC style desks" rather than specifically DFC desks.

    Greg
     
  17. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    It only gets better. It's so good to see you guys here supporting RO.

    What a valuable site we are all creating.

    cheers!

    smile.gif

    audiokid
     
  18. Pete Gates

    Pete Gates Guest

    Hi Greg,

    Agreed & agreed!

    True and I didn't want to complain as to be fair you seem more clued up on dubbing theatre operations and requirements than many composers/producers I have worked with: I've had music turn up variously on MiniDisc, out of phase, incredibly low level, on 32KHz dat (that one was fun, we had to buy a portable Dat machine to play it), takes not matching the inlay card listing etc.

    Pete Gates
     
  19. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Member

    Hi Pete,

    << ...you seem more clued up on dubbing theatre operations and requirements than many composers/producers I have worked with. >>

    Thanks for saying so. Unfortunately, my knowledge comes from bitter experience! I've had technical difficulties with dubbing theatres on several occasions. Especially as I record and produce the music in surround. Also, although I've had good experiences with dubbing engineers, I've had some bad ones too.

    As a matter of course, I now always have a meeting with the dubbing engineer before I even start recording the final score. Along with technical information I also want to find out if the engineer has any trends, pet hates, etc. The dubbing engineer has more control of my music than anyone, with the possible exception of myself and sometimes the director. I feel it's absolutely essential to "get in with" the engineer and to understand exactly what is going on.

    Greg
     
  20. supersonic C

    supersonic C Guest

    Cool, you guys came out slugging, yet beers all around after the game. I agree, the relationship between composers/designers and dub/mix engineers is paramount, regardless of DFCs or MP3s. I am a muso turned mix engineer many years ago (don't ask), and if we don't see ear to ear, what's the point? Pete, nice one "a complete LASH-UP" LOL! I'm going to use that one. DSP II seems very cool, but it still needs a (hu)man-sized controller for mixing. NO MORE LILIPUTIAN MIXING CONSOLES! OK, now I feel better.
     

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