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Find Crossover Frequency of Passive Speakers

Discussion in 'Studio Acoustics' started by AODEF, Mar 10, 2016.

  1. AODEF

    AODEF Active Member

    Mar 10, 2016
    I have my Emu 1820M optical output going into an Onkyo TX-SR500 reciever,
    out to two Sony SS-B3000 3-Way bookshelf speakers.
    1" tweeter, 3" midrange, 8" woofer
    The crossover is not specified in specs.
    Also, Sony support says they don't have the info.
    There are options that need to be selected, such as Optical In 1, of course.
    But also select number of speakers/configuration (2 speaker stereo)
    You can select crossover frequency,(80hz, 100hz, 120hz)
    but it does not effect it if Subwoofer Off is selected.

    I am familiar with Room Eq Wizard, and wondering where in the measurement data
    I would be able to decipher the crossovers.

  2. dvdhawk

    dvdhawk Moderator Resource Member

    Dec 18, 2008
    Western Pennsylvania, USA
    The crossover frequency setting on the Onkyo is only concerned with whether or not you're using a subwoofer. If you've got no sub, set the Subwoofer Off and don't worry about it.

    If you've got a separate subwoofer, I'd set its crossover to 100Hz to start and see if you can balance it out using the sub's volume control. Your Sony speakers claim frequency response down to 50Hz, but I'd expect a dedicated sub to do a better job below 100Hz. That will also unburden the Sony 8", which may tighten the low end up (in a good way).

    If you're asking about the crossover frequency between the Sony's tweeter / midrange / and woofer, it's not really relevant.

    I hope that helps to clear things up.
  3. AODEF

    AODEF Active Member

    Mar 10, 2016
    Yes, I was actually wondering about the crossovers between the tweeter/midrange/woofer.
    Figured there was a way to look in the measurements and pick them out.
    I believe I seen an image for 3-way speaker somewhere where an arrow
    pointed to a spectrum, and something else, and labeled the arrows "crossover".
    Not sure where, or what I saw....it's just in my memory for some reason.

    No sub for this, just the two bookshelf speakers.
    Thanks for the response.

    Here is an analysis,
    Red is KRK RP5's with a KRK RP10S sub..85dB ref. level
    Blue is the Sony 3-way Bookshelf. 80dB ref. level
    I offset the levels so they could be offset a little.
    I still need to place the Sony speakers in an optimal position,
    which I will get too.

    I currently have an issue(narrowed down) with my ECM8000, 60hz hum and harmonics,
    as well as the Emu 1820M adding DC offset(enabled highpass filter in REW).
    Mostly goes away when I hook up my Radio Shack SPL meter,
    but the Emu is still causing some low frequency
    noises that mess up my waterfall graph.
    I will be getting the minidsp usb measurement mic soon, or something.
  4. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Moderator (Distinguished Member) Resource Member

    Nov 25, 2012
    Akron/Cleveland, OH
    Home Page:
    Are you measuring these speakers in a treated environment? Under good acoustic conditions, obviously, the KRK's will measure "flatter", as they are designed for studio near-field reference; while the Sony's are - I'm assuming by the way you described them as being "bookshelf" - showing dramatic skewing in several areas of the frequency range... I would call that -53 dip at around 100Hz to be a serious attenuation, and your upper range is sloping off pretty seriously above 3k or so... but, this is heavily dependent upon your environment's acoustic signature as well...

    Which weight scale did you use to do your measuring?
  5. Boswell

    Boswell Distinguished Moderator Resource Member

    Apr 19, 2006
    Home Page:
    Is the blue curve showing the Sony bookshelf speakers working in conjunction with the RP10S sub? It's hard to imagine the bookshelf units on their own being only 5dB down at 25Hz, unless your room is playing tricks.

    There look to be some pretty serious things happening around 100Hz, as Donny says, although I make the dips only about 23dB below the 80dB ref level.
  6. dvdhawk

    dvdhawk Moderator Resource Member

    Dec 18, 2008
    Western Pennsylvania, USA
    ADAT optical outputs like those on the Emu and Toslink optical inputs on a stereo device are usually not compatible protocols, but there's a way to set the Emu ADAT output to 2-channel S/PDIF @ 48kHz, is that right?

    Unless you intend to tri-amp the Sonys, I'm still not sure what the benefit of knowing the crossover frequencies would be. If a speaker manufacturer shows a freq. response graph (with or without the crossover points indicated) it was done in an anechoic chamber, so it wouldn't have any of the variables you're trying to sort out.

    The 60-cycle hum is one thing, which is usually a cabling, or an electrical grounding problem.

    The performance of the Sony speakers is another. I also find it hard to believe they're doing as poorly above 3kHz and so well below 80Hz as graphed. That is quite a null at 100Hz. So I'm also questioning the room treatment, the RTA mic position, and the speaker location, and how they're affecting the outcome.

    Are the Sonys completely sealed, or ported out the back?
    And can you go into more detail about what all changes when you enable / disable the high-pass?
  7. AODEF

    AODEF Active Member

    Mar 10, 2016
    Sorry for the delay..been busy. Room dimensions. Finished basement(concrete, insulation,drywall)
    L 22' W 13' H 7'10". Will be putting up a video soon. Pics below. Coming video will show full layout.
    I have mainly been doing video editing lately. Some mixing, some mastering.
    The original reason behind this was because I was getting that hole from 100-200Hz.
    So I was interested in testing the crossovers without opening, somehow.
    Something to that effect.

    So, did some test, confirm there is an issue with the ECM8000, and maybe something with the
    Radioshack SPL meter with regards to measuring. Just happened recently. Never had problems.
    Sort of bummed out, because I have not done many measurements with the ECM8000, except
    for when I first treated my room. I just recently started doing some more stuff to the room.
    I have had the mic since 2007 however.
    Below are the issues. SPL in REW was calibrated at 8odB, so calibrated.
    ECM8000 at necessary gain(black) and when I touch the mic on the mic boom, not the actual
    body. Touching the body does nothing, however, when touching anywhere along the boom of the mic,
    I get what you see in RED.

    Now with the Radio Shack SPL plugged in, set to 80dB on dial, of course C-Weighted selected, with no
    mic .cal file loaded. Still a little something going on.

    Now, with an AKG Perception 200, not much low frequency issues as with the other two.

    About the room. Some of you have possibly seen my build on youtube.
    Floor to cieling corner super chucks with Roxul SafeNsound. 32inch face.
    7in thick at top, tapered out to about 10in at the bottom, front wall build.

    Back wall: This box belonged to previous owners. It was in the wash room. It had their
    washer and drying on it. I turned it into a wannabe poor mans bass trap. Did not put much effort
    as you can see. The blue stuff is closed cell foam underlayment that goes under carpet, about 1/4in
    thick. The box is prety big. Of course I covered it with fabric. Sits against back wall with underlayment
    facing into room. Back side, top, and sides are 1"thick particle board. You can also see a little
    superchunk of some white fluffy in the corner, floor to cieling. On top sits a ghetto blaster system,
    with switchable speaker sets.

    This is a pic before I got the Sony bookshelf and the reciever.
    I built a bridge for the monitors out of 2x12.
    Side panels are 2 1/2" thick, 54in long, 34in wide. Same as two cieling clouds.
    Other little panel on the ground is Roxul. There are a couple of those in there as well.
    String on ceiling is for center of mix position.
    Left is music production computer, right red computer is video editing beast.
    Little monitors are Edirol MA-7A active powered wannabe mix cubes, I got for $8 at a second hand store. You can see the ceiling comes down
    9" on left side making it lower, that is heater duct in there.

    So, I will be getting a minidsp usb measurement mic here in a bit. Hopefully with will eliviate any issues
    I am having with the Emu1820M ECM8000 combo. It used to work fine.

    Doing some experimenting with the SPL as measuring device for now.
    You they have to be on their sides, to get rid of the big dip around 100hz.
    Still have to do some more tweaking. RTA while moving SPL meter, or speakers.
    Going to try woofers in,tweeters out. Going to have to bring the green screen back some.
    Those are MRE boxes, only temporary. I am in the military, US Army Infantry 16 years.
    Photo taken with phone, radio shack spl meter far right on tripod.
    Due to placement, going to have to sit back further when listening to those.
    They are just another reference.
    Due to noise floor with the SPL, and some other issue, waterfall is pointless, because
    it trails off infinitely at same level. Today, the SPL had an issue around 37hz. High peak.
    Only checking lowend. 75dB ref.

    Attached Files:

  8. Brien Holcombe

    Brien Holcombe Active Member

    Mar 31, 2015
    Exit 4
    Home Page:
    "Some of you have possibly seen my build on youtube."

    Right. Don't flatter yourself.
  9. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Resource Member

    Jul 21, 2009
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Home Page:
    There's a lingering 40hz, You might want to adjust the front wall so there is an air cavity, and use something like 4-6" roxoul. That might help with the sub low. It might help to make that foam area at the top right when facing the mixing desk into a bass trap configuration.
  10. AODEF

    AODEF Active Member

    Mar 10, 2016
    Your my number one subscriber, and run my fan mail. Thanks.
    According to your profile, you are also following me, which makes me
    even more famous. I have that effect on people.
    Now get lost if you have nothing to bring except trollish jibber jabber brah.
    I am the number one troll, your master. Moving on. P.S. I still love you. I love to flatter myself with flatulence...
  11. AODEF

    AODEF Active Member

    Mar 10, 2016
    That is only when using the Radioshack spl meter today. Normally it does not have that spike.
    You can see it in the mic comparison above, at 37Hz, the largest peak.
    This is just with the SPL plugged into the Emu1820M, no sound being played.
    As I move the dial to a higher SPL, the peak goes down.

    I have considered making a gap, because the wall can be pulled out away from
    the other wall. Not following what you are referring to as far as the upper right area.
  12. dvdhawk

    dvdhawk Moderator Resource Member

    Dec 18, 2008
    Western Pennsylvania, USA
    I don't know where you're the number one troll, but it won't be here. You're obviously new around here and don't realize A) the admin and moderators here do their best to keep the place troll-free and B) that's the one RO regular most qualified to comment on your construction. And like the rest of us, he's not scouring the internet to watch in amazement as the next guy builds the next DIY studio in his basement. So if a little dose of reality hurts your feelings and triggers your troll reflex, don't expect to be around long enough for anyone to care. Discussion, disagreement, and debate are welcome. Trolls will be jettisoned with extreme prejudice. Proceed with caution.
    Sean G and Brien Holcombe like this.
  13. AODEF

    AODEF Active Member

    Mar 10, 2016
    His comment lacked the professionalism and credibility you speak of.
    Thanks for the opportunity to allow me to explain my thought process here.
    "Discussion, disagreement, and debate are welcome."
    I have no feelings and deal with far worse internet jabs and sly comments everyday.
    I said "possibly" have seen my build on youtube, not "I know you are all eager to watch my build."
    "watch in amazement as the next guy builds the next DIY studio in his basement."
    I see what you did there. Thats cool, but I see nothing wrong with doing it yourself.
    That tone seems to me as an implication that maybe a DIY studio, that uses some
    of the same treatment/building principles as Pro studios, are looked down on. You know,
    "just another DIY guy, look at that guy, with his DIY studio." I speak sarcasm well.
    Quite possibly, that was not your impulsion, but that is how it's percieved.
    That is reality.

    In another thread, this same "regular" told the guy who gets "electrocuted",
    "Polarity doesn't matter with AC 110...it goes in and it comes out.

    Check the extension cord. And then ask your Dad if he knows."

    All because he thinks that guys post, is a troll post.
    "Personally....I think the poster AND the question are a setup...so there is no right answer."
    The original poster of the thread even addressed it in his response, and was displeased
    with his demeanor and approach.
    I do commend Brien for his ever watchful eye and ability to spot possible
    fake posts and trolls. However, to respond in such manner when it could be legit, is impetuous.

    Why are we even bringing this up? He addressed me in such manner,
    I handled it accordingly and made my own little joke. No harm done.
    So, can he not handle the same treatment? Dish it out, yet cant recieve? I am sure he is a cool guy. I am sure it does not bother him.
    He will be fine, he's a big boy.
    I figured he was trolling, that is why I said "I am the number one troll."
    I am not a troll, but if you attempt to troll, I will most likely troll you harder.
    I am not angry, and found it amusing. Sarcasm is my second language.
    I responded with a sarcastic comment.
    That is why I said "moving on". I know he was being sarcastic.
    I do not feel like he was attacking me, or hurt. It's all good.
    I could hug him right now and shake hands, and make a toast.
    Then he could teach me his ways of studio design. I know for a fact,
    Brien is far more knowledgable and could find a million things
    wrong with my studio layout/build. I welcome it. I would be his apprentice.
    From what I know, he is a freaking genius and has been doing this for as long
    as I have been born. I am 35.
    Again, no harm done.

    With regards to my ECM8000, I posted a graph above showing what happens
    when I touch the mic boom. Not only do we have the 60Hz, harmonics and more, but
    it boosts all level up. This only happens with the ECM8000.
    Is this normal when touching the mic boom end? Don't remember.
    Black line is just with it plugged in and gain necessary for measurement of 85dB.
    Red is when I touch mic boom part, not body.
  14. bouldersound

    bouldersound Real guitars are for old people. Well-Known Member

    Jan 23, 2010
    Boulder, Colorado
    That could be a bad mic, bad cable or bad power grounding scheme. It's a cheap mic, maybe buy another? Worst case you have two working reference mics, a stereo pair!

    You can probably figure out crossover frequencies by covering one tweeter or midrange driver at a time and running some sweeps.

    Is there a rationale behind orienting those big speakers horizontally?

    To be honest, when I saw those photos my reaction was, ugh, not another challenged acoustic space. Sure, that comment above may have seemed blunt, but it comes from a source I've seen provide good information about acoustics. There's more to creating a good acoustic space than using "some of the same treatment/building principles as Pro studios".
  15. paulears

    paulears Well-Known Member

    Feb 7, 2014
    Lowestoft - UK
    Home Page:
    I'm left with the impression you are working with mismatched and possibly incompatible test tools, and seeing conclusions that are not there. Before you do anything else. Take your speakers and your test equipment outside, somewhere quiet. Run your test again and see how perfectly flat your responses are. Look at the results and draw some conclusions. Without room nodes, resonances and obstructions, you will see something that reflects the performance of the speakers and the test mic, which is a very popular one for this kind of job.

    Your pictures indicate a mess of a room with seemingly random problem solving devices all over the place. I wonder if you have introduced so many different products that your room response is wrecked. Could you have used a product to solve a perceived issue, and accidentally created another that another product was used to 'cure', which then caused something else? My own experience was on similar lines in my first studios, a reactive process made worse by me learning as I went along. In my case, when we decided to redecorate, we removed everything, and once painted, did the tests and disovered some of the room issues didn't really exist, once our knowledge gained over a couple of years was used from scratch.

    For what it's worth, Sony hi-if speakers always had a unique sound. Amazingly different to British ones at the time. In the 80s and 90s, the biggest improvement in a home sound system was to replace the Sony speakers with British ones, and totally change the sound. The Sony's were NOT bad speakers, but tuned for Japanese tastes. I bet had anyone tested them using today's technology the visual result would have been a real mess!

    Looking at that mic trace, what was the test noise source? Or was that simply what the mic was really generating in free space, no test signal? If your test mic hums, throw away every result it's produced, it MUST be flat in silence or it's crazy to use it!
  16. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Moderator (Distinguished Member) Resource Member

    Nov 25, 2012
    Akron/Cleveland, OH
    Home Page:
    Except we don't know that about you, as we don't know you well enough yet. Forums are communities, and like any community, there will different personalities. The difference is, that over time, people get to know one another here, and we get used to certain things about their personalities. We haven't had a chance to do that with you yet.

    You came in pretty hard and fast, loading lots of pictures and mentioning your DIY vids on you-tube, so instead of knocking, you kinda just kicked in the door here, and expected to be accepted right away. Generally, a simple introduction is in order, common courtesy, before you start posting long posts filled with 20+ pictures. Whether you realize it or not, your post did come off as "bragging". And, we also like to make sure that accurate information is provided here on RO. We have experts here in many facets of audio. But we don't know your education, or your experience, or level of expertise.

    Just take it easy... let us get to know you a little bit first.
  17. Brien Holcombe

    Brien Holcombe Active Member

    Mar 31, 2015
    Exit 4
    Home Page:
    I think you should check the extension cord. And then ask your Dad if he knows.
  18. bouldersound

    bouldersound Real guitars are for old people. Well-Known Member

    Jan 23, 2010
    Boulder, Colorado
    I think it's more the seeing (and doing) and less the tools. I have that mic, and his SPL meter looks like it might be the same as mine. REW is perfectly adequate software. But, like you indicate, if you don't know what you're looking at you're going to end up with some skewed ideas.

    REW doesn't use noise for measurement, it uses sine wave sweeps. It does use pink noise for level calibration.
  19. AODEF

    AODEF Active Member

    Mar 10, 2016
    Yeah, just ordered the UMIK-1 USB mic through Madison Speaker Components from Amazon. Seemed
    from the shipping time quoted, it would come from their location, not Hong Kong.
    The speakers on their sides for that specific reason, running sweeps one inch from cones.
    This was so all drivers are at same height for ease of measurements. Also was experimenting.
    I am familiar with why placing them on their sides is not a good idea.

    Roger that Donny: Name: Dominick, age 35, Married, 2 kids, one on the way. US Army Infantry 16 years(kicking
    in doors is my job), Tours Iraq/Afghanistan, seen plenty of action and lost some brothers.
    Hobbies-Powerlifting, music, video editing, shooting guns...Associates Criminal Justice with 2 semesters of Electronics Engineering.
    ASE Master automotive tech(certs out of date, did it for 5 years). Plan to finish off Electronics degree.
    I design and sell tshirts through teepring and viralstyle, by running well over $2000 in ads a week on facebook,
    to everyone who thinks Facebook is a place to chat, but it's really a business platform, that tracks analytics
    of everything you do. I use those analytics to target customers from any one of my many facebook niche pages.
    I am not here to sell shirts.

    Still trolling I see. I have no food for you, but I do have a morsel. It is time you know the truth.
    Your grandfather is my dad....SON! Brien's status: destroyed/burned/sit down/you need a spaceship to get on my level/can't touch the troll roasting king.
    LOL love you bro.

    So, once the mic comes in, will do some more testing. Will be opening up those Sony speakers, and testing
    each driver one at a time. Possibly might be building my own loudspeaker in the near future.
    Currently reading some loudspeaker design books. Along with some an acoustics book.
    Plan on taking over the world. in my own mind.
  20. Sean G

    Sean G Moderator Resource Member

    Jul 27, 2015
    Sydney, Australia
    Maybe as opposed to being a smart-arse, you should have more respect for the members who give their time and knowledge to RO, a learning based forum.

    After all, thats why you are here, is it not?..or is your purpose here just to insult and incite, which will have you removed from the site before you can blink an eye.

    My advice to you is if you want people to take you seriously, and by any way help you at all, show some respect.

    If not, find another site to ply your crap on, members here who give their time and knowledge don't have time for time wasters or trouble makers.

    May I suggest you go back to facebook instead of RO if you want to insult members on this forum.

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