Full PA System, feeback pls :)

Discussion in 'Location Recording' started by rois, Jun 26, 2007.

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  1. rois

    rois Guest

    Hi all,

    Worked out a system for use in a church with a hall size of about 20 metres x 30 metres x 15 metres high. It will currently only have 100-200 congregations. Would like comments or feedback if possible :)

    2 x 31 band Berhinger EQ
    2 x DBX-160A compressor
    2 x REV100 FX
    3 x PS3500S amp + 6 x A12M Monitor
    2 x PS5000S amp + 2 x 218V Sub
    2 x PS7000S amp + 4 x C-115VA High mid

    As for mixer, I am looking at a 32 channel mixer with minimum of 32 channel, 6 Aux and 4 sub-groups. I was very interested in the GB4 but is slightly out of my budget.

    Can anyone recommend a "cheaper" console than the GB4 but has the same specs?

  2. Bently

    Bently Guest

    drop the 2 31 band EQ's and get this:

    Behringer ULTRACURVE PRO DEQ2496

    As I assume youll be using to EQ your mains......
  3. moonbaby

    moonbaby Mmmmmm Well-Known Member

    What "specs" are you expecting a cheaper console to have equal to a $6000+ USD GB4? For less $$ (about half), I'd look at an Allen & Heath GL2400-32. Decent audio performance, better reliability over the Yamaha MG line, for example. The Mackie Onyx live desk is very nice, too, but it has less of a track record. And a REALLY nice alternative to the GB4 is the Midas Verona, but the price of that is up there with the GB4. And when it's time to upgrade your EQ, try to stick with a decent pro brand like Ashly, dbx, Rane, Audient, K-T, Symetrix, etc.
  4. Kent L T

    Kent L T Active Member

    You want 6 monitors in a church that size? Sounds like a lot of stage levels to me. In ear monitoring would be way better if you can swing it and keep the floor monitors to a minimum. It will make the sound man's job so much easier if he is not having to compete with stage levels.

    ditch the berringer eq's.

    Unless you have someone come in and eq the room for you the eq's might do more harm than good. (Well intentioned volunteers making smilely faces with with the sliders). If you do get them(a brand besides berringer) I suggest a locking front cover for them and hide the key where no one can find it.

    My two cents worth
  5. sheet

    sheet Well-Known Member

    You get what you pay for. You don't find cheaper alternatives for the same performance usually.

    Why 4 of those C115VA's? You can't array them. Any time you use multiple 15s like that, you are going to have some severe combing issues, not to mention the combing from those wide horns interacting.
    If this is a short wide room, go with two 60 degree horns maximum.

    You are going to have quite a mess with 6 wedges IMO vs. your mains. I would do small headphone mixer amps like the ones from Furman and headphones.

    Behringer EQs are horrid. They will suck the life and headroom out of your PA.
  6. rois

    rois Guest

    Hi all,

    Thank you for your feedback.

    I am going to try answer 1-2 questions here.

    Why 4 x C-115VA?

    Just cheaper alternative to other type of spk. Any other alternative that could be use would be most welcome. Thought about Array setup but just too expensive (in my neck of the woods anyway)

    Edit: The C-115VA is the only "flyable" model from Yamaha. Also it seems like no Yamaha spk other than its monitor type has dispersion of less than 90degrees.

    EQ use for main? Why Berhinger?

    Yes, to just assist in reducing feedback. Again, I originally had Yamaha Q2031B but it cost twice. So if/when there is left over budget, I will purchase the Yamaha instead of Berhinger.

    Equivalent to GB4?

    Well...I did a bit of research and came up with these alternative which has a similar specs but costing less. And the alternatives I came up with are:

    Soundcraft GB2-32, Soundcraft LX7ii, Mackie Onyx 3280 and Mackie Onyx 32-4-32.

    I am kind of leaning towards the LX7ii.

    Why 6 monitors? Why not in-ear monitor?

    Simple...budget :)

    Edit: I did consider A&H mixers before coming up with the alternative above but I have heard horror stories about some A&H mixers thus I took it out of the alternative list.
  7. Kent L T

    Kent L T Active Member

    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HP60/ way less money than all those floor monitors. One wedge for your lead vocalist (or whoever it is that can't be tied down with being wired) the rest can use headphones or in ear's wired directly to the headphone amp. I run sound in a 2,000 seat church and this is similar to what we use

    That eq is not gonna stop the feedback if you try and use it to things are gonna sound horrid. If your getting feedback it is either because of mic placement, incorrect usage, usage of the wrong type of mic, or its plain just too loud for the room your using it in. You can eq individual mics to reduce heavy freq. that might cause feedback but to use a big blanket like that is a big no no. I stick with my first suggestion ditch it (the eq period) and buy something else you need with the money.

    Ok your not gonna like this but you really need to have an engineer (or the company that makes the speakers) design your setup. You may save a lot of money doing it like you want but you will
    1. Always have sound issues you will be dealing with.
    2. You will have safety issues if you don't fly them right. I think this trumps all the other issues in my mind. No church needs a heavy speaker falling from the ceiling an landing a visitor resulting in a death and lengthy lawsuits especially when they found out it wasn't done according to code.

    You don't have to use expensive equipment but it does have to be used right.

    On mixers I have used several of the brands you mentioned(except the A&H) and have had at least one problem with each one over time but all have been very usable. I would place a call to each ones tech support and see how easy it is to talk to someone(not a machine). The first company that answers with a human voice I would go with that one(a pet peeve of mine).
  8. sheet

    sheet Well-Known Member

    They are in a small room, with 100-200 people and a loud band. I think this is like a bar situation. It's low budget, so nobody is going to design a system. The acoustics...well, there is likely no money for that.

    He is going to need some processing if he is going to blast away, especially if the pastor is going to be using the system with a lapel, cheek mic, etc. I would say at minimum the dbx 260 or the Peavey processor (which some say smoked the dbx). He HAS to have some EQ.
  9. rois

    rois Guest

    Well...sheet is quite right in a way that there is almost no budget (though I am fighting for it and looking at finding $$$ to fund this sound system). And there is no money for acoustics, not now anyway unless we can grow the number of congregation :)

    I am trying not to make it have those bar situation but yes, without proper planning and thinking, it will turn up to be a bar :)
  10. Kent L T

    Kent L T Active Member

    You're right both points Sheet. Being in a church that actually has a budget for sound stuff has kinda spoiled me.
  11. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye Active Member

    OK, I'm quite late to this thread, but will jump in anyway.

    Nice board options, good amps, OK mains and you want to insert Behringer EQ's in between? If they're on the monitor channels only OK (which also assumes someone can use them effectively for feedback elimination) , but not in the mains. IMHO.

    Also, are you sure that you need to have six separate monitor mixes? Our worship team runs with only two mixes right now because we're in betweeen upgrading amps and it works. Four would be great (and our Yamaha MG32/14 board will do it). Six would be overkill for us (and we sometimes use a pretty big band with horns, keys, piano, bass, acoustic and electric guitar, drums and multiple singers).

    Some have questioned the use of six monitor wedges and I don't think that's an issue at all. If there's more of them, you don't have to turn them up as loud as they will be in closer proximity to those who need to hear them and that's going to help with feedback too. You could run those six wedges (or more) off of those 2 3500's you're proposing (4 channels) and save yourself money that you could spend on some nice EQ's.
  12. sheet

    sheet Well-Known Member

    Me too. To the point that it is hard for me to sit in a church that doesn't have the means to do it correctly. That is not to say that the service is not great, or that the pastor isn't proclaiming the Word of God. It is just hard not to get distracted with the "I wonders" and "if onlys".

    On the other hand, I am growing tired of the concert, show and even circus event that church has turned into. I am finally coming to the balance point of form and function.
  13. BobRogers

    BobRogers Well-Known Member

    In my experience you can get "concert, show and even circus" in all type of worship formats. Style might be different in the "Christian Rock" formats, but the excesses and egotism are the same. It may be worse in the modern formats because people have to think about how they are going to put on the service rather than just do what they have been doing since they grew up. On the other hand, doing something new also makes people examine what they are doing critically rather than proceeding by rote. People have been writing novels about this for a few centuries.

    I'm a praise band director at a "contemporary*" service, and there have been too many weeks when I have been concerned more with making sure the mics don't feed back than with providing a religious experience. But I'm doing this because music has been a central part of my religious understanding (and my general understanding of the transcendent) since long before electric guitars were used in service. So don't despair. At least around here there is (IMHO) more honest, fun, soulful music being made on Sunday mornings in this town than on Saturday nights.

    * My experience is that the people who use the term "contemporary Christian" aren't old enough to know the Elton John songs most of the repertoire has been "influenced by."
  14. IIRs

    IIRs Well-Known Member

    How can a church possibly justify spending $$$ on a PA system when there are people going hungry?

    I suggest you give the money to charity, and tell the pastor to speak up a bit. If its good enough for jesus's sermon on the mount, surely its good enough for you?
  15. sheet

    sheet Well-Known Member

    IIRs. That is a good point. This is a big can of worms.

    Jesus knew how to use the natural landscape as amphitheaters. Plus I imagine that he had the ability to have some support if he needed it. Unfortunately, we do not have said landscapes or the ability to hold church out doors all year round.

    We all need PA systems so that people can hear. I can stand before God with a good conscience and say that I have never installed excess, or unnecessary lusted items. There are those that do. I won't. I can't.

    The thing is, churches are actually harder on gear than professionals. Churches also need simplicity, repeatability, with professional production results when driven by a volunteer staff. Some of us churches are doing more advanced stuff than broadway and major network broadcasters as a result.

    The church is reaching a generation now, called the Mosaics. They grew up with computers, iPods, internet, excellent concert productions. They are not linear thinkers. They need data and presentations that accommodate their learning process, and allow them to worship in a way that is relevent to their culture. This places unique and expensive demands on the church.

    To me it is not the sound that is unnecessary. It is the TV broadcasting. People are watching less and less. It will soon be mostly internet driven, so that people can watch on their own time. That is the trend that is recognized by the major religious broadcastors.

    If people would get off of their butt and go to church, Christians would go to the sick, imprisoned and elderly, there wouldn't be such a need. There is a church on every corner. There is a bible in almost every store and library. Come on. If a person wants help or a word from God about how to fix their life, they can take some initiative. IMO, there are too many bad preachers with poor reputations and no accountability on TV, and they are getting loaded.

    The hunger issue is a big can of worms. Why doesn't the 30% of my income do a better job of feeding them? Churches SHOULD feed and clothe. Many of them do. There are many international ministries that do this as well. They get help from major corporations and Christians across America to feed our own. We have more food in this country than we need. There is no shortage. But, society has moved hunger and necessities to the responsibility of the government. The government knows little about efficientcy. We all look to churches and God when things get tough. Look at 9-11. People went to church and got serious with God for about two weeks. Do we seek churches any other time when things are great?
  16. moonbaby

    moonbaby Mmmmmm Well-Known Member

    This is a great thread. Some observations:
    My parents taught our family that going to church served more than one purpose. It was not only to learn the word of God, but to have the personal interconnections with other PEOPLE-know their needs, their problems, their souls. To communicate eye-to-eye, person-to person.
    You cannot achieve this through a video monitor and a Visa card.

    I have recently been getting more and more into the church production
    business. On Saturday nights, I mix at a 2500-seat non-denominational church. Big board, big-budget sound. When the NFL season starts up, that Saturday night service is packed, overflowing. The Sunday 11 am service drops like a rock. Everybody wants to be ready for the Jacksonville Jaguars' game, they act like they want to get church "out of the way".
    God is taking a backseat to the NFL!!!

    On Sunday mornings, I have a sunrise service on the beach, under a gazebo. Rain or shine a good 150 turn out for that. Average age:60+.
    There is always some sort of outreach/food bank project underway,
    always a friendly smile and a handshake. They've learned that the personal contact, caring, and giving is what it's all about.

    Then I'm off down the road for a couple of services in a very affluent golf community. We are currently holding services in a middle school while they are building a new facility. Full sound/light/video production for a couple of services that are barely 100 each. There was a call for volunteers to be onhand to set up the "show" (screens, speakers, etc).
    That lasted a couple of weeks. But because these "upwardly mobile" folks don't want to get their hands dirty, they opted to up my rate and have me provide the extra personnel instead. Now I feel guilty that I'm profitting from peoples' unwillingness to personally contribute to the church service.
    Once again, the lack of human involvement. It makes me question the faith at times...
  17. BobRogers

    BobRogers Well-Known Member

    If you are really serious about that question I'd bet there is a library in Sheffield with a long shelf of books examining it. The debate goes back to at least the middle ages (remember "The Name of The Rose"?) Obviously I don't agree that it is necessary that a church or it's member must commit themselves to poverty in order to follow Christian theology. While a lot of people claim to believe it, I don't see the Franciscans having a big shortage of sackcloth robes.

    There is only one appropriate response to that.
  18. IIRs

    IIRs Well-Known Member

    What does that mean? Given that "God" is apparently whatever you want it to be, so can I. So can the people that flew planes into the WTC.

    Where is your evidence for that assertion? I put it to you that the truth is exactly the reverse.
  19. IIRs

    IIRs Well-Known Member

    That's an interesting choice of phrase...

    That's reassuring. Think for yourself! You don't actually believe all that god nonsense, surely?
  20. sheet

    sheet Well-Known Member

    I can stand before God knowing that I did not waste money, I did not sway people to buy something other than what was right for the job, given the criteria and budget at that time. We Christians are called to be "good stewards" or good managers of what we are given. We are not to spend foolishly. There are many designers and churches that swap gear like it is a fashionable textile. They buy the latest and greatest for bragging rights. I am not that type of guy. I know that money could be better spent on reaching/helping people.
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