Getting around digital summing for higher quality mastering?

Discussion in 'Analog Summing' started by Scriabin, Aug 11, 2004.

  1. Scriabin

    Scriabin Guest

    Hello All,
    I'm currently in the process of finishing some mixes for mastering. I'm recording in Logic Audio at 24bits 44.1 khz. I've notice for some time that when playing back audio within Logic the mix sounds fuller and has more punch. However, when I bounce or "mixdown" the files into an interleaved stereo file at 24 bits, I notice a loss of that "punch." My ears could be playing tricks on me but I swear I can hear that the sound has become somewhat veiled and flatter.
    Without getting into the whole digital summing bus debate, do M.E.s recommend sending off an entire external harddrive with all of the files included and the mix session? So in theory they could load up logic, import the files and bounce the session how they chose instead. Would this be a wiser option for me to pursue? Logic's bouncing is really getting me down...
  2. Massive Mastering

    Massive Mastering Well-Known Member

    Not too many guys (and gals) I know would suggest that...

    One thing you could try (does Logic support VST?) is the TapeIT plugin. It's a real time record-what-you-hear plugin and the regular version is freeware.

    You just throw it on the master bus, hit "RECORD" and you're done.
  3. NolanVenhola

    NolanVenhola Guest

    Make sure you are mixing down to 24 bit. Logic might be dithering poorly if you are bouncing to 16 bit.
  4. Ammitsboel

    Ammitsboel Member

    What format are your bouncing down to?
    Are you using any dither?
    Are you using realtime bouncing?

    Best Regards,
  5. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    Don't send the whole mix to the ME, it'll become a nightmare. Most likely what I think you might be hearing is some truncation. Even if you're bouncing at 24 bit you should be dithering it to 24 bit. Double check to find out what the internal mixer is running at bit wise. Find a good dither plugin that will dither at 24 bit and try that. tell us if anything changed.
  6. Scriabin

    Scriabin Guest

    Thanks for the replies. I apologize as I should have been more clear in what I'm doing. I'm recording and bouncing at 24bits wav files without any dithering. I'm on PC so I'm stuck at Logic 5.5 without the option to bounce offline. That's a pain in the butt because of the vst plugs I use but thats another story.
    My soundcard, vxpocket v2, is set at 24 bits. Is it possible that cramming all of those seperate files into a 24 bit interleaved stereo file results in the loss of individual file bits?
    Massive, thanks for the link to the plugin. I've been considering picking up a 1/4" 2-track studer to dump everything into. Would this be a worthwhile route to consider?

    Thanks Again,
  7. Ammitsboel

    Ammitsboel Member

    OK, try with dithering and tjek if it's any better...

    Yes it is indeed! especially if you're not using dither.

    Yes it would.
    The format in it's self is of a higher quality than any computer file... if it's correctly adjusted(that's my opinion).
    When you get it, try to experiment with 15ips and 30ips to find out what suits your material best.
    1/4" 15ips can sound very nice and special in it's own way!

    Best Regards,
  8. chriscali

    chriscali Guest

    What's the point of dither if you aren't reducing your bit rate?
  9. carlisle

    carlisle Guest

    Ha! I have the same question. Anybody?
  10. iznogood

    iznogood Guest

    try recording through a digital loop (spdif out to in) onto a muted stereo track...

    that's what i do in protools
  11. Ammitsboel

    Ammitsboel Member

    As far as I've been told the Logic mixer operates at a higher bitrate than 24bit.... hence the dithering.
    If you work with 16 or 24bit file(s) you will easilly end up with 32,48 or 64bit if the processing bitrate allows it.

    You could get a plugin that shows the bitrate so you can see it.
  12. chriscali

    chriscali Guest

    Can you recommend a plugin that does this?
  13. Ammitsboel

    Ammitsboel Member

    Try to google it and see if you can get one for free.
    I have the one in Sequoia... but that's not really a plugin.
  14. Scriabin

    Scriabin Guest

    Interesting concept, I've never thought of that. I record with a vxpocket and its got both extension on it. However, their both it possible to get an spdif male to male to make that loop?
  15. Scriabin

    Scriabin Guest

    Thank you for the replies everyone. Speaking of dithering does anyone have any favorite dithering algorithms? I was looking at the Crane Song cd in particular. I guess the way I understand it, I could import the dither noise into logic somehow and use that to dither to 24 bits. Is this the right idea?
  16. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    almost all daws process greater than 24bit. if you can, dither down to 24bit. There are many good dither algs. Powr-r, uv22 idr. any of these works. In fact all dither works.
  17. Scriabin

    Scriabin Guest

    How would the Crane Song analog dither work in this regard?
  18. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    Cranesong dither is modeled after analog noise. whatever that means. It's a noise shaped dither that is designed to enhance certain freqs to emulate analog tape bumps. It's more designed to change the tone a little. Basically you add it to your mix at -25db. I've used it a few times and I think it helps with really bad digital sounding mixes but doesn't do much for well mixed stuff. Plus the object of dither is not to change the sound but to preserve the sound. I myself would rather I changed the sound than relying on random noise to do something for me.
  19. Abdullah1234

    Abdullah1234 Guest

    just record you song's direct to the external CD recorder no need for Dithering even if you record the song's on 96 sample rate 24 bit it will go to 16bit 44.1 and it sound's best


    Abdullah Al balushi
  20. Ammitsboel

    Ammitsboel Member

    Either it's dithering and then truncating, witch is the same as doing it internal, except that you can thoose witch dither you will use when doing it internally.

    Or the nr2 option is that it's just truncatin the incomming 24/96 signal to 16/44 and that means that you're now the lucky owner of a CDR with reduced space,definition and dynamics.

    Best Regards,

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