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Guitar modeling speaker

Discussion in 'Guitars' started by Kemble, Feb 4, 2006.

  1. Kemble

    Kemble Guest

    legend%20modeling12graph.gif

    This is the frequency response graph for a speaker sold as
    -ONE OF THE MOST WIDELY USED GUITAR SPEAKERS IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY IN THE PAST FEW YEARS
    -THE TONE IS COLORED VERY LITTLE BY THE CONE
    -VERSATILE FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC INCLUDING ROCK, COUNTRY, METAL, BLUES & JAZZ

    The frequency respons is clearly not uncolored, and I can attest to the harsh bump in the 2-4Khz area. I bought this to use with my amp modeliers (both the kidney shaped red one and the guitar shaped blue one) and software modelers.
    All produced the same response- I had to put layers of fabric over the speaker to knock down the harshness.

    How is it that this is touted as 'uncolored' reproduction? I put the same sounds thru my Rokit8s, fender 2x12 amp, HiFispeakers, headphones....etc.. and none of them sounded as harsh as this speaker.

    for the record- I have the speaker in a 3/4 back cabinet made of 3/4" thick plywood, and mounted on 1/2" ply.

    Whats the deal with this speaker? Is this frequency response really 'uncolored' and I just don't grasp the science? :roll:

    Thanks.

    Jeff
     
  2. Jeemy

    Jeemy Well-Known Member

    Erm, without being an expert, a guitar speaker has a frequency response that is by no means flat, it filters a lot of the harshness of the sound of a guitar amp and leaves mainly midrange I think. 'Uncolored' is not what you want.

    To be honest, the freq graph you show there doesn't look that colored, and I think it is in fact that this speaker is fairly full-range that it sounds so harsh.....en though thats what you thought you wanted.

    The capital letters you posted from the blurb, and fact no brand is mentioned makes it sound like you've bought something unbranded that claims it is the hidden secret that amp and cab manufacturers don't want you to know about......and if you've been on this forum for 400 posts you should know the magic box doesn't exist.....

    You can get a Cele Vintage 30 for about $60 secondhand. Pure gold. Get one of those, and if you've still got problems, you know its something else.

    I know you are putting emulators through this and there is an argument that you want a good full-range speaker and just use the speaker emulation of the emulator, but I think guitars sound best through guitar speakers (and real amps). If its full-range you want, you know its got to be good/i.e. not cheap. If its guitar-based you want, Celestion, Electrovoice, Vox, all make good drivers.

    If you have a brand for the speaker, let us know, but it sounds like a cheapy and if so, thats why it sounds like a cheapy.
     
  3. Tommy P.

    Tommy P. Well-Known Member

    Yeah, that Eminence speaker is what it is. Its a good speaker, and very efficient too. The high end needs to be there for its intended purpose.You might want to break it in for awhile and let the cone and motor soften a bit. Send some high level program material into it for a few hours a day and see how it sounds a day, week, months later. There will be a difference. Those two modellers you speak of have always been harsh to my ears, especially the blue one. Post EQ them.

    EDIT: That speaker response graph is fairly flat if you take into consideration it is designed to compliment the recommended enclosure and the human ear.
     
  4. Kemble

    Kemble Guest

    TommyP-
    Thanks for the breaking-it-in recommendation. Nice pick on 'the blue one' :lol:
    I've had 'the blue one', 'the red kidney one', and even 'the zoom one' for a few days.
    If I recall correctly, you are a J-Station man? Is that right?

    I have the GuitarRig demo loaded on a cpu and I am getting the same resonse. Not that Guitar Rig makes my computer "the magic box"... :wink:

    I'm not going to promote 'the blue one2' (for $79 used I couldn't pass up the opportunity to not haul around my amps for minor gigging) , but I've played it thru many different systems including a full auditorium PA, a club PA, stereo speakers, amp cabinets, and various studio monitors; and nothing has sounded as bad as this speaker. I've driven it with several amps too. Same thing.

    Maybe I should try a fully enclosed back to bring up the low end to match the upper mids? Then the whole thing can be turned down. ...reaching for straws here, I know....

    So I guess I'll break it in and go from there.


    Jeemy-
    Eminence Modeling 12, not some magic bullet answer.
    But if you have some swampland in Florida for sale, I'm interested... :p

    I have multiple speakers in multiple cabinets for multiple purposes, each of them does their thing, but I wanted a 'flat' and 'uncolored' response to be in line with what my amp sim was doing. Like the Atomic Amps (without the tube amp, of course).
    From Eminence:
    "This new addition to the Legend family has been one of the most widely used guitar speakers in the music industry in the past few years. The tone is colored very little by the cone in this speaker making it the perfect choice for any modeling amplifier application. If you want Metal, Rock, Country, Blues, or Jazz, just dial it on your amp and let it do the work.
    This speaker will answer accordingly"

    Now I don't believe everything I read, but this speaker was the only real recommendation for my purposes at this point.

    Found this interesting:
    Vintage 30

    Modeling 12
    legend%20modeling12graph.gif

    Thanks guys.

    Jeff Z
     
  5. Tommy P.

    Tommy P. Well-Known Member

    My J has been tucked away, but its still a nice piece. For classic tones, post tube dynamics processing and some corrective EQ has always given the best results in my experience with it. It never ever sounded good into a guitar amp, except the power amp insert of a Fender Deville.

    Definitley close the back of that cab. Does your cabinet follow the manufacturers recommended enclosure size? An array of smaller full range speakers may give a smoother coverage and projection in a live setting for the modeller. Think of it as amplifying a keyboard. It needs full range and plenty of headroom. Dynamics and punch will make your toys sound better.

    Sometimes its just easier to bring a great amp, and leave the gizmo's behind, ya know? :D
     
  6. Jeemy

    Jeemy Well-Known Member

    Isn't the freq response of the V30 about the same as the Eminence? Just squished up? I find it amazing that the Eminence is touted as flat response; obviously these things never get close to genuinely flat.

    Its a shame it doesn't actually sound good! Be interesting to find out how it is after breaking in.

    The Jensens are getting good reviews at the moment. It'd be nice to have a good cabinet design where one could road-test and compare speakers - I just bought a closed back Marshall 1x12 for this very purpose but I'd like to get into dovetailing my own (well, having a carpenter friend dovetail 'em for me!) and learning more about the differences in speakers.
     
  7. Tommy P.

    Tommy P. Well-Known Member

    Yeah, Jeemy carpentry is fun with a nice tool and shop setup. If you have the time, it could be rewarding.

    As far as the Italian made Jensens, I think they are OK( not the NEO's), but for the Chicago sound of the originals check out Ted Weber's speakers.
     
  8. CoyoteTrax

    CoyoteTrax Well-Known Member

    In addition to what the others have said I'd like to add that you may also want to consider that this new speaker may have exposed a weak point in your signal chain. And that weak point could be your guitar's pickups. What kind of pickups are in your guitar?

    Some players gripe about lack of dynamics in their amp, or they can't find the right fuzzbox, etc..., when their pickups are overwound with cheap magnets and produce nothing but really loud muddy tone with overhyped highs.

    I may be wrong but just thought I'd throw that up for your consideration.
     
  9. Tommy P.

    Tommy P. Well-Known Member

    Excellent point.
     
  10. Kemble

    Kemble Guest

    EDITED by AUTHOR: I just read thru this. Sorry if its jumpy and manic-sounding. Just had some Starbucks here at work. In a hospital. Where we also have McDonalds......which makes sense....

    I'm glad this is turning into a good conversation. For the record, I'm not looking to get water out of the stone. I know that bits n bytes can't equal glowing hot tubes. (Especially the 'blue one's lower processing bit rate)

    Several things-
    Got the speaker from Weber Speakers. He was great to deal with.

    As for following recommended design on the enclosure- there is none that I have come across. Some use it open, some closed, etc.... thats the response I got. I (this isn't very scientific, I know) used the Vetta and Atomic Amp series cabinets as an example for my own. The Vettas use a custom voice Celestion.

    2 guitars running thru the speaker- Les Paul custom and Godin Exit22 w/custom Duncans. Not harsh pickups at all.
    The LP isn't mine, so the Exit22 is guitar#1 right now. (IRS took my other guitars.... :roll: ) The signal chain sounds good to great thru other formats, so its definitely the speaker. I've put it thru my Fender 2x12 (Celestions) and it was muddy (using speaker sim on the processor).
    The Eminence Modeling12 isn't muddy, its just............jab knives into your head after 3 minutes........ :shock: sounding.

    -for the record, I have an old back up (I keep it because SteveVai signed and played it..Ok, he strummed it once) yamaha Pacifica that is the guitar that Coyote Trax described.

    I have the skills just short of dovetailing, but my uncle has an excellent set of tools.........
    My cabinet is 3/4 BC plywood with 1x1 pine reinforcement. Very solid. It was a response to my wife asking "Are you going to use that speaker you bought!?". Its ugly...the box, not my wife, who is smokin hot...but it works. Since its 3/4 closed back, I can just cut a piece to fill the void. Versatile design....


    I enjoy the different tones of GuitarRig software when recording quietly in my basement as well as the blue and red simulators. And my short attention span liked being able to switch in and out of tones quickly. But I missed moving air with a real amp. Thats really my reason for all of this- i want to have my cake and eat it too.
    which only makes sense, I mean, c'mon, its CAKE!

    Until Stone Gossard sells me his Trentino........I continue to seek.

    Jeff
     
  11. CoyoteTrax

    CoyoteTrax Well-Known Member

    Jeff, do you have a capacitor in the enclosure that could be swapped out with a quick solder job? Could be a cap that's not spec'd properly or that you may have to replace with a different value. Just a guess.
     
  12. GavinMajesty

    GavinMajesty Guest

    Sorry to go off topic, but it's always nice to meet another Scot here!
     
  13. Kemble

    Kemble Guest

    No capacitor. Just the speaker in the box and the wiring. Soon to be a permanent 1/4" jack. But you got me thinnking (tis key board is sticking).
    You guys thihk that a caap might be a solution? Onn a pot?


    My wife is 25% Scot blood.

    My blood is 25% scotch :lol:

    Jeff
     
  14. Jeemy

    Jeemy Well-Known Member

    on the subject of caps, did you call eminence? what has mr weber said? is it possible this is a dud?
     
  15. CoyoteTrax

    CoyoteTrax Well-Known Member

    An Eminence dud?...

    blasphemy...

    Every Eminence speaker is a gift from the heavens.
     
  16. Kemble

    Kemble Guest

    Heard back from Weber (very promptly might I add)

    Doesn't think its a dud. Its just what it is. Recommended knocking down some of the harsh frequencies by blocking them. Admittedly, he didn't have much experience with this speaker.

    of note- I re-boxed a set of ?Fisher? stereo speakers- 3 ways - into different boxes some time ago to serve as 'monitors' while I had none for a while. Hooking them up the the amp I was using for the Modeling12, I got an acceptable, full, stereo sound. It doesn't push the air like a big 12" speaker, but it also doesn't make my ears bleed. Maybe I should have just bought an average PA speaker.

    I'm still set on working this problem and having this Modeling12 work, but at the moment it is getting beat by old stereo speakers (which are neither loud enough or dependable enough over several hours to use live)

    Jeff
     
  17. twon

    twon Guest

    you have probably done this already, but have you remembered to turn the speaker emulation OFF when using the speaker? i dont think it would cause this kind of problem, its just that i´ve heard the results of speaker emulation into speaker..... and its not very nice at all
     
  18. Kemble

    Kemble Guest

    Actually, the idea behind the "Modeling 12" is that the speaker emulations should be ON. It is supposed to impose little of its own coloring so that the emulated speaker set up (bassman 4x10 mic'd with an SM57 off axis.....or Orange 2x12 cab...etc....) shines thru. I've used a POD/VAMP as an effects processor before an amp and thru the FX loop and then you certainly have to have it off.

    I haven't used it in a while. Just irritated. Thinking of picking up a PA speaker and being done with it.



    EDIT: ADDED 20 Minutes Later
    Or maybe I'll just go pick up a Vintage Bassman, a Mesa TripleRectafier head w/ 2x12 cab, and a Vox AC30. :cool: Maybe I can trade in my BluesDriverII, wah pedal, and PODfor an even deal? :lol:
     

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