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How can I get that massive upfront metal guitar sound?

Discussion in 'Guitars' started by keano, Mar 12, 2007.

  1. keano

    keano Guest

    I have a 57 mic and was thinking of getting a MD421 to but on outside of cone to get best of both workd straight on and off center. Still though. do they compress the $*^t out of the tracks? how do they EQ them. I just can't get a clear up front sound.
     
  2. moonbaby

    moonbaby Mmmmmm Well-Known Member

    2 mics that close together are probably going to make matters worse. Added to that is the fact that there are many other factors besides the make of the mic that contribute to the sound, most noticeably the amp and the room, not to mention the player. If you're using a bigass stack in a smaller room, good luck. You will have much better luck cranking the crap out of a smaller amp and letting the rig "breathe" in the room.
     
  3. multoc

    multoc Active Member

    Pan each guitar hard left and hard right. the 57 is fine don't worry about a second mic. then play with the levels don't be afraid to turn up the guitars in the mix, next work on your tone, cuz if your tone sucks no matter where you mic on the speaker it's gunna sound like crap!
     
  4. moonbaby

    moonbaby Mmmmmm Well-Known Member

    Keano:
    You posted a comment on the guitar and bass forum here, indicating that you are using a Marshall JC800, an amp in my arsenal, though not my fave. Do you know if yours has 6550 power tubes or EL34's? Marshall changed these during that amps heydays. If you have EL34's, try dropping the channel gain a bit so that there is less "phizz", and then push the master. This will yield more harmonic distortion from the output tubes saturating the output transformer, always a smoother sound. If you have 6550's, diregard that, they're too clean until pushed to the max. They also tend to respond to the Presence control in a brighter manner, play with that. Have you made an "amp tent" out of blankets to contain the sound in the room? Once again , a raw 800 is too loud in and of itself in your typical house scenario, a tent can help. And finally, some JCM800's have a "series" effects loop on the rear panel that will let you use the "return" jack as a line input from a POD. This can also be an alternative for you....
     
  5. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    I feel the need to step in here and reiterate an answer that has been used many times here.(Do a Search)... Compression of a severly distorted signal is not going to make it any better. Its already got the "$*^t compressed out of it"...You also mention a clear signal at the end. This has very much to do with the amount of distortion youre using. Its amazing how much you DONT need to make it sound distorted.

    I've owned two of these amps and while one of them WAS and still is my favorite amp (why did I sell it then???? :roll: ) and theres one in the collection of my bands equipment, I wouldnt call these a GREAT amp for metal. Hard Rock....ABSOLUTELY! But theres that hi-gain input thing that goes with getting that serious metal noise happening, and a JCM800 just doesnt have that kind of gain stage.

    Of course you may be talking some sub-genre of metal that needs exactly that sound so what I think would be a moot point...... :wink:

    Heres a couple of things that may help.

    1. Use a smaller amp.(already mentioned) Turn it up till it sounds full in the room and then back it off just a smidge.

    2. Barring having another amp, try to get a single speaker enclosure to work. Especially if you are in a small room.

    3. Barring having this option, isolate the head from the cabinet. Its unreal how much mechanical distortion you get from the head sitting on the cabinet and the vibrations from the cabinet causing the tubes to vibrate. If this sounds farfetched and 'davedog must be out-da-mind, try it....

    4. Use less distortion than it seems like it should have.

    5. Buy an Engl amp.
     
  6. keano

    keano Guest

    They do have EL34 and I was thinking of placing 6550 in there funnily enough. So your saying for 6550 tubes to push the gain up and use presence for brightness?

    Davedog I hear you! But with a OD in front Keeley modded SD-1 it sounds pure metal to me. I also play mid gain stuff ACDC on stewroids stuff. Zakk is a good example of 800 doing metal. Your suggestions are great though. I use a 4X12 an a hot plate. Amp sounds thicker on HP -8 and MV on 4. Never used a blanket and room could be a problem. Do I just throw a blanket over cab?

    I also have a TSL100 maybe I sould use this in 25watt mode but when I do clips it sounds a bit thinner and metallic.

    Maybe I should up load some clips to a link? Sometimes I hear these clips that just sound so much better. Upfront in face.
    Upfront like these clips different amp but up front.
    http://
     
  7. fromwithin

    fromwithin Active Member

    i agree with a ton of the above =) i honestly feel the only way to record good guitar tone is to get good guitar tone from your setup first. my friends have various guitar heads (my fav. to record being a bogner ubershall) after that a 57 placed decently (or a 58 sometimes) on a smaller cab (we like to use a genz benz 2x12 for heavier stuff hehe) should produce a good guitar tone as long as you dial it in right. and yes, rule #1 one (especially for metalcore/death/etc.) should be start with less gain, its the only way you'll have clarity!
     
  8. keano

    keano Guest

    Single cab is a good idea too if that helps. Is it possible to get a single 1x12 that a marshall head can go into?

    If I do this I won't lose any largness?
     
  9. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Not really. Think about the area a 57 in a close micing situation is picking up.

    Now before anyone else thinks "Davedog, you've really lost it this time...." I realize that there are a LOT more factors involved than the half-dollar sized part of the speaker that the 57 is getting ALL of the frequencies from, and these do make a difference. Just not that much.

    Size isnt one of them.

    One thing a single speaker doesnt do is cause phase anomolies like a multi speaker'd cabinet can.

    IF you are in a tight, well tuned room, these things dont come into play as much as in an acoutically challenged room.
     
  10. keano

    keano Guest

    Ok, so a single 1x12 would lower the volume then compared to my 4x12? Could I crank my jcm800 more?

    Also at moment to get a decent full sound I have to have volume on 2.5 using HP on -4. Would using 6550 tubes or KT88 serve me better where I dont' have to push the amp as hard ot get that thickness?
     
  11. jyork13

    jyork13 Guest

    Be careful. When I was 15 yrs old I caught a blanket on fire by covering an amp. I didn't notice the smoke cause there was already too much smoke in the room. :wink: Hey, what can I say, it was the 70's.

    Anyway, I realize you said "over cab" and not the head, so it would probably be fine.

    I suspect the earlier post refered to a tent because you want to give the cab a little room to breath.

    JY
     
  12. moonbaby

    moonbaby Mmmmmm Well-Known Member

    Exactly. And KT88's and 6550's are both more "hi-fi" sounding tubes, with more headroom and wider frequency response. I wouldn't really look at changing them out unless you have a tech who knows how to bias them correctly. Many players out there feel that when Marshall (actually, it was Unicord, their distributor in the States) changed the output tubes from EL34s to 6550s, they screwed up the sound. They did this in an attempt to make the amps "more reliable". Anyway, some metal players favored the extended low end and power from the 6550s, but over time, I believe that attitude has faded. I'd suggest that you start off with what DD mentioned. And, yes, there are many 1x12 cabs out there. Weber, Avatar, and others offer them.
     
  13. BobRogers

    BobRogers Well-Known Member

    Remember, what you perceive as "thickness" is not necessarily what a 57 is going to pick up as thickness. You may like the way a Marshall stack makes your pants flutter, but a 57 doesn't have any pants. You are sensing vibrations with your whole body not just picking up with your ears. That's why I partially disagree with the comment above about "start with good guitar tone from your setup." For me, getting a good live rock tone from an amp means the right "whole body" experience. A recorded tone (or the signal you send to the PA for sound reinforcement) is a one dimensional sample of that experience. Getting the whole experience right (which usually means a lot of volume and multi directional vibrations) can interfere with getting the best one-dimensional sample. Note how all the advice above suggests focusing the sound down to the point of the mic - fewer speakers, less distortion, lower volume, less interaction with the room. The goal is to put the best sound possible in a 1 inch mic capsule, not to create the best human experience. (That comes later when the mixed sound comes out of the stereo speakers.)
     
  14. keano

    keano Guest

    Very helpful thanks guys. I plan on 6550 switch to try and a 1X12 cab.
     
  15. mimosamusic

    mimosamusic Guest

    getting a big metal guitar sound

    There are a few components to getting a big guitar sound in Metal of any genre:
    -Doubles, they must be dead on, scrutinize them! Most likely you will have to record your songs in sections to get it tight. Doesn't matter how good your artist is.
    -tracking with a di signal helps for editing later on
    -for tone I like to stick with close miking. 57's work most of the time. If you want to get creative try senn 409's or 421's...this is standard.
    - I've been using a Krank Revolution 100W with a Mesa 4/12 cab. I mic both the Revolution and the Mesa and blend these two tones together, with lots of gain, but not too much so things dont get cloudy and undefinable.
    -You could also try routing a POD into the mix and blend it into whatever amp your using...
    -Listen for fat low end and definable mids...
     
  16. HemlokSociety

    HemlokSociety Active Member

    mimosa why would you mic the krank head?
     
  17. AwedOne

    AwedOne Guest

    One thing that hasn't been mentioned...

    If you're recording to digital, you can copy the track, pan one hard L, the other, hard R and delay one by a few milleseconds. Play the amount of time until you get a big fat tone. It has to do with the 2 waveforms being in or out of phase with one another. If they're way out of phase the tone will get thinner.
     
  18. multoc

    multoc Active Member

    you can't get it, stop asking!=)
    no thats mean, just find a song with just the guitar in a section, then try to aim for that, give more mids and search the forum b4 posting=)
     
  19. DRDLKS

    DRDLKS Active Member

    If you want clear crunchy guitars. You need to use as little gain as you can. All you will do is record a pissy "DISTORTED" sound that you wont be happy with.

    Drop all the gain out of the amp. Crank it up. Get your tones set up real nice. Then let the speakers break up. This is what "distortion" is doing anyway. So let it happen natuaraly. Add in a little gain to beef it up but not too much. LESS IS MORE!

    LET THE SPEAKERS BREAK UP..!
     
  20. automatic8

    automatic8 Guest

    Get amplitube 2! :D
     

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