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How do I retain Sound Forge edits exporting to CD Architect?

Discussion in 'Recording' started by photowriters, Sep 27, 2008.

  1. photowriters

    photowriters Active Member

    I am involved in an audio recording project and I need some quick advice. Let me say at the outset that I have tried the Sony email support option without success. We are talking back and forth on two different levels.

    First a description of the project. This past summer I was part of a team that documented our church choir on a performance tour of the UK, and I am now the "audio engineer" tasked with producing a CD that contains the best performances of each piece selected from one of five different concert venues each with their own acoustic characteristics. The gear we used was a Sound Devices 702T with two Shure KSM-141 mics in an X-Y configuration. The recordings are 24bit 88.2kHz.

    I have mastered the basics (and I do mean the basics) of Sound Forge 9 and the Waves Z-Noise filter, but I am at an impasse in regards to how to do several things. So far I have accomplished the following in regards to the raw audio.
    • Balanced audio between channels for poor microphone placement when required for a performance recording.

      Compensated for the variation in dynamic levels for different concerts by selecting one a cappella piece in one concert as the reference and adjusting the dynamic level (gain) of the recording at the other venues to match the reference.

      Added reverb to one very dry location so that the songs selected from that performance recording would more closely match those in large cathedrals.

      Minimized noise through out each recording with Z-Noise by creating a separate ambient noise profile for that performance venue.
    With all of that done, the audio is clean, robust, smooth and often brilliantly tranlucent with good stereo imaging. In Sound Forge, I have created regions for each of the songs that have been selected for inclusion on the final CD. My goal is to create a master file which will be exported to the CD Architect 5 software for burning the master CD. When I posed my dilemma to Sony's Sound Forge support, this is what I in return was less than satisfactory:

    • Thank you for contacting Sony Creative Software.

      Here are a couple of things attached that might help.The screen shot is pointing out where to click in CD Architect to apply effects. If you have an effects chain setup and want to apply that to multiple events, you could maybe use CD Architect rather than Sound Forge to accomplish this.
    I have developed several different possible methodologies.

    • Methodology 1

      [list:a4d032461f]Copy one version of a song from one of the recordings of five different concerts that to which the following have been accomplished:

      [list:a4d032461f]Balanced between tracks corrected if necessary because of poor Microphone placement.

      Gain adjusted up or down to match dynamic levels of other concert venues.

      Noise reduced with Z-Noise plug-in.
    Paste song into a new project keeping all of the adjustments made in a.i. through a.iii above.

    Burn master CD from new project.

    Save the new project as a new composite master WAV file that retains all of the modifications and adjustments without an auxiliary metadata file. [/list:u:a4d032461f][/list:u:a4d032461f]

    -- OR –-

    • Methodology 2

      [list:a4d032461f]Export one version of a song from one of the recordings of five different concerts into CD Architect while retaining all of the adjustments made in Sound Forge including:

      [list:a4d032461f]Balanced between tracks corrected if necessary because of poor Microphone placement.

      Gain adjusted up or down to match dynamic levels of other concert venues.

      Noise reduced with Z-Noise plug-in.

    Burn master CD in CD Architect. [/list:u:a4d032461f][/list:u:a4d032461f]

    -- OR --

    • Methodology 3

      [list:a4d032461f]Copy one version of a song from one of the recordings of five different concerts to which the following have been accomplished:

      [list:a4d032461f]Balanced between tracks corrected if necessary because of poor microphone placement.

      Gain adjusted up or down to match dynamic levels of other concert venues.

      Noise reduced with Z-Noise plug-in.

    Paste song into a new project keeping all of the adjustments made in a.i. through a.iii above.

    Save new project as a WAV file that would be regarded as destructive because the original audio has been modified. In other words, if the new file is played back by something other than Sound Forge, the same noise reduction, dynamic modification, and channel balance would be apparent as if each song was played through Sound Forge from the original raw audio as modified in a.1. through a.iii. above.

    Burn master CD from newly created file. [/list:u:a4d032461f][/list:u:a4d032461f]

    Frankly, methodology 2 is the least preferable solution. With either methodology 1 or 2, the master file created will have all of the modifications and could be played as. It would be a standalone that did not require Sound Forge or CD Architect to be running to obtain the dynamic, noise, etc. adjustments. Conceptually, at my current level of understanding, the simplest way to accomplish what I want is to create a master project in Sound Forge, copy and paste the selected pieces from the set of five concert recordings retaining all of the individual metadata for each selection, and then both importing the master project file into CD Architect for burning the disc and saving the master project as a modified WAV file which, when played on something like iTunes or Windows Media Player would still have all of the editing in terms of noise reduction etc. of the individual songs. Problem is that I have not found a way to either export a selection to CD Architect retaining all of the changes and/or save a master project as an edited WAV file that retains all of the file modifications.

    Regards,

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. Greener

    Greener Guest

    Quick advice aye?

    Just quickly, what was your question?

    I did read, it wasn't too long. I wouldn't go back for more though.
     
  3. photowriters

    photowriters Active Member

    The basic question was included in the subject:

    "How do I retain Sound Forge edits exporting to CD Architect?"
     
  4. Greener

    Greener Guest

    I don't get it.
    Edit your music. Mix down to stereo. Burn CD.

    I'm not trying to be rude. It's more than likely a deficiency in me, personally.

    I'm just missing the point, and it took a long time to read... I feel kind of cheated.
     
  5. Codemonkey

    Codemonkey Well-Known Member

    Yes. Export whatever you have from Sound Forge.
    To hell with regions (momentarily) and just slap those tracks onto a CD in CD Architect. No need to mess about with regions.

    Then you have those tracks from the CD untouched etc. to make other copies of, compress and email, add to playlists, so on.
     
  6. IIRs

    IIRs Well-Known Member

    the important part is dithering and samplerate converting: your audio is at 24/88.2 but you need it to be 16/44.1 to go on a CD.

    Here are two possible methods:

    1. Perform all of your noise reduction / volume matching / reverb adding in Soundforge.

    2. Samplerate convert each file to 44.1 KHz (processs->resample (unless its changed since ver.8 ))

    3. Save each file at 24/44.1 resolution.

    4. Import these files into CD architect (no need to use Soundforges 'export to CD architect function' you can just drag the files in from explorer) and arrange them to your satisfaction. Feel free to adjust volumes or create fades & cross-fades (but watch the master level if you turn anything up)

    5. Burn the disc allowing CD architect to dither and truncate the audio to 16 bits on-the-fly. (CD architect puts a dither plug in the master sectiion in new projects, so you can just leave it as it is and burn the disc)

    OR:

    1. Perform all of your noise reduction / volume matching / reverb adding in Soundforge.

    2. Samplerate convert each file to 44.1 KHz

    3. Dither each file down to 16 bits (process->bit depth converter (unless its changed since ver.8 ))

    4. Save each file at 16/44.1 resolution.

    5. Import these files into CD architect and arrange them to your satisfaction. Do NOT change the volume of any files, or use any of the cross-fading or fade features!

    6. Right-click the plus symbol above the master fader and choose 'delete all': this will remove the dither plug (your audio has already been dithered down to 16 bit so adding more dither will just uselessly raise the noise floor.)

    7. Burn CD.
     
  7. photowriters

    photowriters Active Member

    Obviously, My original post was obtuse.

    Here is the problem as I see it.

    While Z-Noise will significantly reduce noise for an entire 45 minute recording session, that noise reduction is transient, not permanent. As long as the Z-Noise plug-in active in the plug-in window, the noise is filtered. However, if I save the file, exit the program, re-open the program and the file, and playback/monitor the audio, the original environmental noise is not suppressed. I must open the Z-Noise filter with the proper noise profile in the plug-in window in order to suppress the noise.

    If the final CD was going to be made from only one concert, there would not be any problem. Unfortunately, songs are to be taken from five different concert venues each with its own ambient noise. That requires adjacent songs on the final CD to be filtered with different noise profiles. Although it is a simple matter to create a master project in Sound Forge by copying and pasting the songs from the five different concerts, I have not found how to either retain individual noise filtration applicable to songs from the five different recording venues or use a different noise reduction profile for different regions of the same file.

    So, how can I ultimately create a CD where adjacent tracks will have been filtered through Z-Noise with different noise profiles?

    The 3 methodologies in my original post are simply valid solutions to the problem if and only if I can either use different noise reduction profiles in each region of a file or save the edited file with the edits and noise reduction as a 24/88.2 WAV file that stands on its own. In other words, I would not have to bring it into Sound Forge in order to hear the various dynamic, reverb, etc. edits and the noise reduction provided by the Z-Noise filter.

    Since I haven't found a way to do either one of those things, I created the original post whic is the source of your confusion. I sincerely hope this helps
     
  8. Space

    Space Well-Known Member

    "So, how can I ultimately create a CD where adjacent tracks will have been filtered through Z-Noise with different noise profiles?"

    Back in the old days, folks took handwritten notes.

    I think IIRs is running interference for you. It seems the next step you are going to bog down on :)
     
  9. GeckoMusic

    GeckoMusic Guest

    Just bounce it, mix it down, consolidate it, render it, export it. What ever it is called in your program. Just make sure the file format is 16 bit stereo interleaved 44.1kHz WAV file.

    Do noise reduction first, then all your other effects.

    Don't sweat it.
     
  10. Codemonkey

    Codemonkey Well-Known Member

    Just have 5 project files. It doesn't munch your HDD?
     

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