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How to Patch FX?

Discussion in 'Recording' started by Bob Barcus, Feb 2, 2010.

  1. Bob Barcus

    Bob Barcus Active Member

    Hi,How did they patch rack fx in the old days If I try to put more than one fx inline I get tone suck. Can you run more than one DDL or DDL with a Reverb inline :confused:
     
  2. Kapt.Krunch

    Kapt.Krunch Well-Known Member

    Delays and reverbs are best through a parallel path, separate. That way you can have the unmolested original signal going through, and mix in the amount of reverb or delay that you want. It depends on what mixer you have. Does it have several auxilliary send/returns? If so, patch delay 1 through, say, Aux 1, and Reverb 1 to Aux 2., and dial in each channel's Aux 1 and/or 2 to suit.

    If you set the effects devices to 100% wet, then you won't get the original signal also being fed back in. This keeps the original signal clean, and just mixes in the amount of effect you want.

    Kapt.Krunch
     
  3. Bob Barcus

    Bob Barcus Active Member

    Patch FX

    Thats the problem I have 2 sends but I wanted to run 2 delays and a reverb .My mixer is a little Carvin 16 channel runs at -10dbMy rack has a tube preamp a ART Multi FX Roland SRV2000 Reverb, SDE1000,Yamaha D1500 and a Digitec7.5 Time Machine And a PS Systems Power Tool reactive load.All my Amps are Vintage 1964 -69 Bandmaster and Marshall.I know I need a switching sysyem like a GCX ,but I figured these guys in the 1980s had all this stuff cramed in huge racks. I only used a OD1 a P-90 and a DD2 back then
     
  4. Kapt.Krunch

    Kapt.Krunch Well-Known Member

    Want to run 2 delays and a reverb...at the same time? Or, you want the capability to run whichever whenever, but not necessarily all at once? If it's the latter, you may look into a patchbay to easily swap things. Which model Carvin do you have? Any channel inserts? Direct out type of thing? Just need one of the delays in one channel at a time? So, run that direct out and back in to either itself, or even possibly to an unused channel, wet, to mix back in? Then, have the other delay on one Aux, and the reverb on the other Aux?

    What's your Carvin? That'll have everything to do with what is possible in your setup.

    Kapt.Krunch
     
  5. Bob Barcus

    Bob Barcus Active Member

    Thanks The Carvin is a SM 162 studio Mate 16 Ch. I cant see if it is a -10 or +4 mixer The only thing I have besides the mixer that has a loop is my PS Systems Power Tool Reactive load.It was made by the Line 6 guys for a short time in the early 1990's.Thanks again for the help.
     
  6. Kapt.Krunch

    Kapt.Krunch Well-Known Member

    OK, first, if you don't have the manual, dowload it here:

    Manual Finder

    It depends on what you want to do with the effects. I would put my best two, or most used, on Effects 1 and Effects 2. That way they are always ready to use on any channel, or any combination of channels, simply by dialing them in on the channel(s).

    If you want a different one thrown in for just one channel, you can do a "half-insert direct out" on whichever channel, and feed that back into an unused channel...say channel 15/16..if available. You can run it in mono, or if the delay takes a mono-in to stereo-out, run it into 15/16 stereo. This also has the advantage of being post-preamp, pre-EQ from the sending channel. So, once you get the input gain set, and set the I/O levels of the effects unit, then if you run it 100% wet to, say, channels 15/16, you can bring up level of those channels, and adjust EQ for the effects on 15/16, without EQ or channel level (except pre) affecting it if you tweak those on the sending channel. Of course, if you want to run more than one channel through this, it can't be done.

    The thing about the Effects 1 and Effects 2 on that mixer is that it says they are channel post-EQ and post- level. This means that anything you change level or EQ on any channel feeding those two will affect the level and EQ overall through the external effects unit(s). Would have been more handy if it was switchable. There may even be a way to do modifications to change them to pre-EQ, pre-level...but I don't know for sure.

    That may actually be part of where you are running into problems. If you run more than one channel through, and you are messing with levels and EQ's on all the channels, then you are also messing with the processed signal coming back through your effects unit(s). Now, if you have one or more channels going through an effects box, and you aren't running the effects 100% wet, you are adding the mixed-in uneffected signal BACK IN with the main signal. So, this will not let you bring up the effects IN RELATION to the main signal, since you are also raising the main signal along with the desired effects. Make sure you try 100% wet signal so you can slide the stuff under the main stuff.


    You COULD even probably take a half-direct channel out into an effects unit, and plug the output(s) of that into an Effects Return, if you wanted a completely EQ and channel independant path to the main mix...but you'd lose one of your onboard Effects Send returns.

    Anyway, as I indicated before, it depends on what you want to do. I can't imagine anyone wanting to run an entire mix through two delays and a reverb, so I'm assuming you want to run maybe a couple channels of background vocals through one delay, and maybe the lead singer through a delay, and all the singers through some reverb or something?


    Gotta map out your usage, and patch and dial in accordingly.

    Hope this helped,

    Kapt.Krunch
     
  7. Bob Barcus

    Bob Barcus Active Member

    Thanks Capt. All I really want to do for now is "play Edge" and see what all this stuff can do I still have a huge pedalboard of vintage whas, fuzz's,distortions, P-90 OC-2 . dsd- delaysampler ect. If I run everthing Wet Can I run 2 rack FX inline togater? Like my ART has a cool sounding 12 string I want to run that with 2 delays set at different delay times Like if George Harrison was playing with U2 on "Streets" ,or the Edge was on Hard Days Night.Thanks again for your time
     
  8. Kapt.Krunch

    Kapt.Krunch Well-Known Member

    You'll have to experiment with what you have, and the routings available. Yeah, you could run one straight into another. You'll have to set input and output levels on each, and set levels throughout the board. Running them serially will contribute to the "tone suck" you objected to in the first post, even paralleled through the loop. You could run both separately, with their own delay times, but one delay won't process the other, unless you do some more fancy patching.

    If you run them serially, and have them both 100% wet, the second will only process the delayed signals from the first, and not the main signal. It's not seeing the main signal. If you want the second to process the main and delayed signal, you'll have to have the first delay box set to a mix of main/delay, so the second sees both. Now if the second delay is set 100% wet, it sees the delayed main signal, and the delayed signals, and then delays both of those further. Basically, it depends on what you want each successive process to do the previous one, as far as wet/dry. Just remember that if you have the original signal mixed to come back through all of them, you'll be adding that with the original signal anytime you make adjustments, so messing with the input/output levels on your effects units, or any levels on the board, is going to affect the apparent level, relationship, etc., of the main signal.

    It can get very confusing. It's up to you what you want. Just try them separately, try them serially, or try a combination. You have a minimum of 3 separate paths from one channel to process things with, as explained earlier. You COULD even get fancy and run a half-direct out to a delay, back into a channel input, and dial that back into Effects 1 or 2 with something else patched into those.

    Experiment. Just watch levels, and make sure your monitor amp is turned down, and your mixer master volume is way low after patching stuff, in case you end up with a runaway delay-feedback loop! Patch, turn up slowly, and be ready to grab the main volume.
    You won't hurt anything by experimenting as long as you have the gozintas and the gozouttas correct, and watch channel, master, input and send and return levels on the mixer, and input and output levels on the effects units.

    That's about all I can add. I've tried to explain the advantages and disadvantages, and the basic concepts of what is possible, and what can happen.

    The rest is up to you. Nobody here can tell you absolutely what methods of connections you need for what you imagine.

    Experiment. Let us know what you ended up doing?

    Have fun.

    Kapt.Krunch
     
  9. Bob Barcus

    Bob Barcus Active Member

    Thanks for your time It was A BIG help I think I was more afraid of blowing something up. Right now I have the reverb in the master send and one DDL in Ch.1 and the ART set to 12 string in Ch 2 Just going to a small 50 watt sterio power amp Thanks again Kapt K
     

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