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I know this is no great discovery, but this is cool.....

Discussion in 'Recording' started by Digger, Sep 21, 2005.

  1. Digger

    Digger Guest

    Alright - I am working on a rough mix for a song that my band is completing. It's a half time feel , kind of moody and intense. It really required a good - big snare drum sound. I had a UAD limiter on my Drum Bus but I didn't like the sound when I pushed the snare to hard on it. I just don't like the sound of limiters when they are working to hard period.

    So how do I get the snare to really show in this mix without pushing the limiter too much? Well there is a part in the song where I was looking to create a brief snare effect (half a bar) - so I copied the snare track twice and panned it wide left and right.

    I bring up the mix forgetting to mute the two copied tracks and holy - F$%K - Bingo - beautiful , big , round sounding snare with plenty of crack to boot (keep the jeuvenile jokes to yourself).

    I know that I am not the first to discover this method and I have used it before on other instruments (most notably Vocals and Guitar) but it doesen't seem to have been discussed on this forum since I have been checking it out and I thought I might pass it on! Cheers , over and out!

    Thoughts and comments welcome.
  2. wayne

    wayne Guest

    Are you doing anything different with the three versions? (assuming here it's not just louder :)
  3. Digger

    Digger Guest

    Bad assumption :-? - initially I just sent more verb to the verb bus on the panned channels. I just started tweaking the center snare EQ a little and I am also experimenting with leaving the Gate open on the center snare.

    Even though the majority of this happy mistake was based on a volume increase it interacts with the mix much differently than just pushing the fader up on a single channel. It also interacts differently with the compressors and the limiters than just pushing up a single channel fader - like I said - I know it's not like I discovered something radically new but I thought it might be helpful for those people (ME :lol: ) who sometimes mix themselves into a corner.
  4. westshore

    westshore Guest

    i wouldnt mind hearing what it sounds like. Any links?
  5. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

    Hey digger I had the same idea for kick drums once and was ridiculed and told I was completely wrong for doing it. IMO whatever gets you your sound is what matters, whether it breaks the rules or not. Glad to hear you got your sound, I'm tryin it tonight.
  6. frob

    frob Well-Known Member

    where and when were you ridiculed? when i mix i do it like a i cook, "if i told you how i did it your not goin to even try it"
  7. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

    It was by a guy named Hang Dawg and I think it was on homerecording.org, I basically had three different kick sounds blended together and he said that was stupid etc... Basically told me that was the wrong way, I argued that if it worked how was it wrong and he'd just keep saying it was bad advice. Am I right that if it works its not wrong?
  8. Cucco

    Cucco Distinguished Member

    I don't see anything wrong with that. I haven't tried it, but 3 kick sounds together should be just fine if phase and levels are kept in check. Personally, on a theoretical level (since I've never done it, I have to stay on that level), I don't see any big advantage to it, but hey - if it works, it works. Now, I wouldn't pan it all over the place - if you've got three different sounds, keep them all in the center or pretty darned close or you'll have a hard time collapsing the mix.

    As for the snares - again, if levels and phasing are kept in check, multiple sounds can be fine. I would again urge that, if the left and right snare sounds don't mesh into a good mono sound, bring them back towards the center. Otherwise, you compete with drum overheads, guitars, backing vocals, layers, etc.

  9. mrbwnstn

    mrbwnstn Guest

    I don't understand that guy’s response? Is there some hard fast rule that says you shouldn't use 3 tracks for the same instrument? We do it for guitars, although they are generally different sounds. But I do that with vocals all the time and make sure to reverse the phase, so the two tracks don't mess with your ears.

    I recorded a song for a band along time ago with the drummer playing a bluegrass brush-snare thingy. We recorded his snare, kick, and overheads twice. Then we mixed one whole take to the left, and one whole take to the right. So essentially it was two kits, recorded during two different takes, playing at the same time (luckily he is a really good drummer and was able to nail the parts so they were "on"). Anyway, it sounded really good! Really thick and unique and textured. But I didn't invent that idea. 311 did a lot of that type of thing with their drums on their Transistor album.

    A clip of the song is online if you want to hear it. It is a low grade mp3, so the sound quality is garbage, but you can hear the mix. At the beginning of the song is just the left side, and then the right comes in and you can hear the two separate kits playing together.

    The song is called 2nd Dates Suck. You'll have to look for it on the page.

  10. Sidhu

    Sidhu Active Member

    If all you did was to duplicate the snare track and then hard pan each.. all you would get would be a louder snare...

    If you had different plugs, or often even the same plug(with different settings), across the three channels (center, left, right), then in all probability you are hearing phasing effects, induced because of the different latencies of various plugs...

    With guitars, when we hard pan two tracks left and right, they usually are two takes, and the small timing differences between them help fatten the sound... With kick's, using seperate samples, in conjunction, would just yeild a differend blend, which could be desirable...

    my 2 paise...

  11. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

    I never hard pan the kick tracks i simply blend three unique kick sounds.
  12. Sidhu

    Sidhu Active Member

    Of cource, and that would often work. But I personally have never had much luck doing so, at least for rock drums. I have issues with the varying attacks of different samples mudding the sound up.

  13. Just yesterday while micing drums, we found two kick sounds we liked, with an AT25 (i think) inside the kick, and a U87 just outside of the kick close to the hole. When we listened to both of them, there was a nice round bass sound with plenty of attack.

    The low tom and the kick were tuned to the same note, and the snare and the rack tom were tuned to the same note...ohh it was a great drum sound all around. 10 mics all perfectly in phase with each other...

    Sorry, I'm just really happy with the drum sound we got.

    What was my point... oh yeah, blending tracks should hardly be considered wrong, IMO.
  14. Sidhu

    Sidhu Active Member

    :cry: I usually try and get by using a 57,58 and the NT1a.. then replacing the kick drum.... I think i need to start looking for work outside...
  15. Haha, the U87 and AT25 aren't my mics. I intern at a studio, that's his stuff. We had two AKG c414's as overheads, an SM57 for snare on top, and an SM57 for snare on the bottom, an SM81 for the hi-hat, an AKG c414 on the ride, Sennheiser 441's on the toms (only two toms), and a U87 and AT25 on the kick.

    pictures of the drums
  16. LRosario

    LRosario Guest

    well this is the thing about the "right" and the "wrong"

    there is no such thing, but at the same there are "standards of practice" not because some asshole says "hey, thats the rule" but because it's proven over time.

    copied snare tracks panned hard left and right is basically summed mono. You noticed a boost because you basically did just about the equivalent of raising the volume.

    However, this is a space that is usually needed for other things, not typically snare. Snare is usually sent up the middle while guitars are panned hard left and right. This is more of a balance issue really.

    But if it sounds cool, thats the whole point. right? ;) Good deal

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