Jules... how's the summing coming?

Discussion in 'Summing' started by kenn.michael, Apr 27, 2002.

  1. kenn.michael

    kenn.michael Guest

    Hey Jules, just wanted to know how your search for the perfect summing solution is coming... I'm still looking at the Dangerous 2-Bus. Have you used it in your studio yet?
  2. RandomGuest

    RandomGuest Guest

    Feb 10, 2001
    Yes it works great! I am very happy with it.

    16 out from my DAW plug into it, The summing or 'combining of signal' takes place in the unit.

    A typical 'patch in'

    1&2 Kick mono + snare mono
    3&4 rest of kit
    5&6 stereo or dual mono drum crush stuff
    7&8 Bass mono / L vox mono
    9&10 Guitar group
    11&12 all other stuff
    13&14 - DAW FX (delays Reverbs etc + Digital hardware unit outputs)
    15&16 - AMS reverb analog i/o unit

    Instead of signals joining the DAW mixer, they instead, shoot directly out of the interface OUTPUTS. Each stereo pair on the D2B can be made into 2 x mono feeds to the stereo mix at the push of a button.

    Prior to patching into the unit (which is a convenient 2U rackmount) I can insert some analog outboard toys. For example on kick & snare I have been using both sides of a Focusrite 215 into 2 x DBX 160's... On the rest of kit some Tube Tech Pultec copies. On the bass - various EQ's and compressors, L vox tends to get the Neve 1073 + UA1176.

    HOWEVER! ALL fades in the DAW are PRE outboard, this IS a little odd or different from 'normal' operation.. but I find it 'workable'.

    The D2B feeds an SSL compressor and the output of that runs into a Cranesong Hedd, then BACK INTO the DAW to be recorded on a stereo track @ 24 bit 44.1k.
    While mixing, I monitor that stereo track and I can instance "mastering" style plug ins across it (monitor only, not recording through the plug ins) , even dither to hear the mix in 16 bit. I feel safe in the knowledge that that I am recording a fairly unmessed with signal that is in a good raw state for either a mastering engineer or myself at a later "mastering day".

    Lest anyone think the unit imparts an "amazing sound" - all it does is the summing & has a handy volume knob to control the stereo outputs level to the next piece of gear. It is well built by a recognized audio guru and it's 2U size is ideal for a DAW studio built with 'no real desk' in mind. The fixed volumes of each pair - aid recall of mixes and are not a pain.

    I was finding it difficult to get my old types of sound using plug ins only and was also struggling against a digital mixer, I just couldn't get my bass drums big enough or the track fat enough...

    The whole deal, of ext. summing and getting my trusted outboard back on signals with the ability to tweak by hand right up till the last minute - make mixing more of an adventure & a special event compared to the way I had been working for the last 3 years.. It sounds a lot better too, which was the whole point of course.

  3. Produceher

    Produceher Guest


    If you don't like the fading you're doing, why don't you try this:

    Come back into Pro Tools using an Aux (Instead of audio track) and send that aux to an audio track. Then fade out the Aux track.

    Good Luck
  4. RandomGuest

    RandomGuest Guest

    Feb 10, 2001
    Hi Prod!


    Anyhow, it works & sounds fine!
  5. KenSluiter

    KenSluiter Guest

    Julian, How do you deal with say, lead vocal rides(PTautomation) before the 1176? One reason why I still prefer console automation is so you can use the PT automation to make the lead vocal hit the compressor at the optimum level; then you use the analog console automation to put the vocal where it needs to be for different section of the song: without ever changing the compression of the vocal.
    When I use PT to automate these types of things, I find that if I use a compressor or even EQ after fader rides; I'm sorta chasing my tail trying to dial in the outboard.
  6. RandomGuest

    RandomGuest Guest

    Feb 10, 2001
    As I made clear, the ONE thing about this is,

    all rides to outboard are post fade..

    It works ok...

    Dont forget there are many different types of plug in 'outboard' toys if the post fader compression doesnt fly for you..

    Analog summing is the MAIN point.

    (you CAN crap around and loop the audio - out once - through outboard - back in - then out to the D2B - I suppose :)
  7. subspace

    subspace Guest

    I clicked on that Odyssey banner for the first time today and see they have a real nice alternative summing solution. A used Studer 269 16x2 portable desk, all discrete with long throw faders, for $4.5K. It's small enough for those that don't have room for a full console, and is designed to do the "just the summing, ma'm" thing with aplomb, plus faders, monitoring, and talkback. A nice alternative to waiting for that amazing deal on a portable Neve or API to fall from the sky.
    I automate my mixes in Digital Performer and send each channel direct out to my Trident for EQ, F/X sends and summing. I use plug-in comps on individual tracks and hardware comps on sub-groups. If I really want hardware on a particular track, I ride that fader by hand. It might be more of an issue if I had racks and racks of outboard, but as it is, I can just about cover my sub-groups and 2-bus. Same goes for my old mac. Running a dozen or so 1176s and LA2As on a 32 track automated mix is no problem, but if I needed to EQ every channel on top of that, she'd be brought to her knees.
    Buying a new Mac every year, or the latest PT system, would be fun. So would buying a Neve with Flying Faders, but neither of those is going to happen. My system is going to have to stay somewhere between those two approaches.
  8. mixfactory

    mixfactory Guest

    Hey Jules,

    Have you checked out the new Speck Lilo mixer yet? Looks like its going to give the Dangerous box a run for its money. 16 faders,2auxes,2 group outs, with mutes and solo switches. Sounds woth checking out.
  9. RandomGuest

    RandomGuest Guest

    Feb 10, 2001
    I studied the Speck a year ago or more... Finally coming out eh? Cool! :)

    Subspace, I am really digging this DAW / Hardware hybrid approach! (no tape)

  10. Produceher

    Produceher Guest


    Maybe I was confused but you said you were returning your stereo mix back into a stereo track on your DAW.

    My suggestion was to add the fade with a bus there which should have nothing to do with summing.

    Am I wrong?
  11. RandomGuest

    RandomGuest Guest

    Feb 10, 2001
    no - sorry thats fine...

    Actually I have a predicament today about that / auto fading with an SSL compressor / dither / Masterlink... I will work it out! (or my brainy assistant will more like!)


  12. passionmax

    passionmax Guest

  13. passionmax

    passionmax Guest

    I was interested on your opnion or anyone else. I have the Mackie digital 8bus. I am not happy witht the end result. When all the channels are summed out the master outputs. it does somehing wack to the sound. (Thin, Brittle lacking life). I have heard many people saying that the Dangerous 2-bus os the way to go. I should come out of my converters into the dangerous 2-bus. I also have the SSL 384 compressor and then to PSX-2100 to Mastelink.
    let me know if I should sell my Mackie and take this approach. People are syaing that it give that full sound like NEve SSL that is lacking from my Digital mixer now.
  14. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    77 Sunset Lane.
    Check out the Inwards Connections SBM-2 at Fats
  15. GT40sc

    GT40sc Active Member

    Jan 14, 2001
    Seattle WA, USA

    I can't get that link to fly...

  16. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Jun 29, 2001
    erase the ...... in your browser...and it will work.

    He put ... after the link...re-address it
  17. e-cue

    e-cue Active Member

    Oct 5, 2000
    What kind of (calibrated) levels are you going into the dangerous 2-bus into? -18? Have you experemented with different output levels?

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