latency problem with X1222/UR22

Discussion in 'Tracking / Mixing / Editing' started by TommyM, Mar 22, 2015.

  1. TommyM

    TommyM Active Member

    Hello guys!

    I am very new here, but as I was trying to fix my issue by myself and failed I give it a try here, really hope you can help.

    I have just build up a new home recording studio with a Behringer X1222 USB mixing console.
    Problem: As soon as I connect everything (USB to computer, ins and monitor speakers) I have a high noise there. As soon as I disconnect USB it works fine.
    So I switched to a Steinberg UR22 USB audio interface for connecting the monitors there, which works perfect, no noise.

    I installed it as default output device and tried to configure the X1222 as default recording device, but now I have the following state:
    when giving a line input signal/vocal to the X1222 mixing console, the ouput at UR22 has a remarkable latency (>300ms).
    second problem:
    I wanted to send the output stream from the computer also to both devices (to have a monitor track for recording via the X1222 and also at the UR22) but I am also not able to configure that.

    I really don't know where to start and if I even made my problem clear, in fact I am not able to record with this setup but want it so bad...

    Hope you can give me a hint on that.

    Thanks so much for your support
    Thomas

    PS: using Win8 64bit (8GB), Ableton Live 9, Native Instruments Komplete 10
     
  2. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    I'm sorry to say it's one of the known problems with the X1222 and it also crops up with several other products from that manufacturer. I guess it must save manufacturing cost not to put proper USB noise filters in.

    I would use the X1222 as an analog mixer, ignoring its USB capability, and do the computer I/O using the UR22 instead. You are not really losing any I/O capability as both devices have only 2-channel (stereo) interfaces. Using only the one I/O device should mean you can tune your DAW latency to zero, as long as Ableton Live 9 has that facility.

    I didn't fully understand your question about routing between the two boxes, but there should not be any problem in sending the audio outputs from the interface to both devices. You could, for example, route the outputs of the UR22 into a pair of input channels of the X1222 and then feed your monitors from the main outputs of the X1222, headphones from the phones jack and the auxiliary outputs (FX sends) for other functions. If the X1222 is used just for monitoring during tracking and is not in the record chain, you don't have to worry too much about loss of audio quality when stringing these devices together. Re-connect your speakers directly to the UR22 when it comes to mixing.
     
  3. TommyM

    TommyM Active Member

    Thanks Boswell for your reply.

    Well, I wanted to avoid to have any analog lines in the setup, this is why I tried to fix it via USB.
    The wished setup should look like this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/iwe3q08h19a10ao/X1222UR22setup.jpg?dl=0

    (the spaces are unfotunately removed, so klick the link please...)

    -------- USB ------------
    * PC * -----------------> * UR22 *
    -------- ------------
    | |
    | headphones
    | USB and monitor speakers
    | in/out (for main mix)
    |
    ------------
    * X1222 * <------- lines and mics inputs
    ------------
    |
    headphones
    (for monitor mix at recording vocs)

    So I need one audio stream of PC at X1222 for having a monitor track for the singer (with recording the same time) and one audio stream just for picking up the main mix at UR22.
    If the X1222 is not able to handle that with an acceptable latency (btw in MME/DirectX mode it does work, but then I can only choose the X1222 as input/output device, no UR22 available then. With ASIO I have the latency), which compareable mixing console do you suggest?

    Thanks a lot!
    Thomas
     
  4. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    Latency during tracking is a real problem and can lead to smearing and lack of "tightness" in a track, not to mention false high frequency echoes from headphones. You are much better off running analog interconnections (giving zero delay at audio frequencies) than relying on digital routing via two USB devices where the combined random latencies can be many tens of milliseconds.

    Regarding your block diagram, if your monitoring/control station is acoustically isolated from your tracking room, you could get away with the setup you sketched, at least from a routing perspective and leaving aside any sonic quality issues. However, I see this configuration as a recipe for constant niggling problems, and my advice is strongly against trying to run two independent USB audio devices that compete for CPU resources.
     
  5. TommyM

    TommyM Active Member

    This makes sense to me, better have clear analog than messy digital.
    So what you suggest is putting the line-out of X1222 to the two ins (L/R) of the UR22, right?
    But how do I then set-up a seperate monitor channel for the vocals?
    Oh god... I am so confused about ins and outs...
     
  6. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Can't have one without the other. Digital captures whatever you feed it.

    Bos is here, you are in good hands!
     
  7. TommyM

    TommyM Active Member

    well not in my case... digital is much too slow compared with anaolgue
     
  8. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Bos is here, you are in good hands!
     
  9. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    Yes, send the L and R main outputs of the X1222 to the L and R line inputs of the UR-22.

    It's straightforward to set up a mono monitoring mix on the X1222 by using the Mon level control on each channel that you want represented in the monitor mix. The Mon Send fader determines the level that is sent to the Mon Send jack.

    If some of the tracks needed in your headphone monitor are already recorded and are coming from the computer, simply treat the analog outputs from the UR-22 as through they were an additional stereo instrument to be fed into the X1222. Take them into one of the 4 stereo input channels (5/6 to 11/12) of the X1222 and use the Aux Mon control for that stereo channel to adjust the level in the monitor. It is important to ensure that the main fader for that stereo channel is kept fully at minimum, otherwise you will mix already recorded material into what you are currently tracking. As I mentioned previously, set up Ableton Live 9 to compensate for tracking latency.

    I've just had a look at the X1222 manual, and I can't see where it says what can be sent to the mixer's phones output. It doesn't make sense to have a phones output that is permanently the main mix and can't be switched to solo a particular channel or set of channels or to check what is going out of the monitor sends, so there must be a way of listening to the monitor mix on the phones. If it turns out that there isn't, you will have to use a simple external headphone amplifier fed from the Mon Send. While you are out getting one of those, post your letter of incredulous complaint to the manufacturer of the mixer.
     
  10. TommyM

    TommyM Active Member

    Thanks so much, Boswell!

    So if I put the analog output from UR22 to stereo in on X1222, how should the monitor speakers be connected then (currently at analog output of UR22)?
    Phone jack on X1222 is giving main mix all the time, no possibility to send MON there only. If pluging phones to MON jack they are just listening to left channel (due to mono MON out I assume).

    So I have to find a way to get the mono signal of MON out splitted to left/right for phones.

    You are giving me faith again in all this stuff... spend already hours and hours to fix this...
     
  11. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    You are hitting limitation after limitation of the X1222 mixer.

    Unless you decide that in any one pass you are only going to record a mono signal and take that out of the Aux and in to one channel of the UR-22 instead of the main L-R ouputs, you are not going to get a stereo output from the mixer for your monitoring. At least if you did this you would get a stereo phones feed and you would not need a separate headphone amp.

    An enhancement would be to use the FX-send on the mixer for a second channel into the other input of the UR-22, but it's a bit dicey as the FX-send is post-fader and so would get any level adjustments that were needed for the phones monitoring.
     
  12. TommyM

    TommyM Active Member

    I will try with your input to find a proper solution.
    Do you have any hint on a different mixing console of the size/price range as the X1222?

    Thanks a lot!
     
  13. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    No, not really. However, consoles of this type come up regularly second-hand as their owners go fully ITB, so it's worth keeping your eyes on local music shops that pass on used gear that they get as trade-ins. I would be a bit cautious of boards of this type on Ebay, as judging by the number I get asked if I would repair, they have often been misused before being put up for sale.

    As you have seen, a console that is primarily intended for live sound often does not fit too well for recording/tracking, so something like a Mackie or a Soundcraft could well be better specified for the sort of work you want to do. Come back to us here with a model number if you spot something interesting and we can give you an opinion.
     
  14. TommyM

    TommyM Active Member

    I was searching abit yesterday and thinking of a Yamaha MG16XU.
    Especially because of the D-PRE Amps and the extended routing functionality.
    What do you think?
     
  15. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    The Yamaha MG16XU is one of many mixers in that price range, which is a fair way above the X1222 you already have. The MG16XU is reasonable sonically, has average functionality, and it would probably work for what you need to do. It has PFL (pre-fade listen) buttons for each channel, so you can route selected raw channels to the phones output. Have you seen one at a really good price?
     
  16. TommyM

    TommyM Active Member

    I found one for 460,- Euro (500,- USD). I would go for it if you say it is good value for money.
    Thanks!
     
  17. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    If that's a new unit, it's a fair but not spectacular price. If it's second-hand, it's expensive.
     

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